this post was submitted on 17 Sep 2023
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Uber was supposed to help traffic. It didn’t. Robotaxis will be even worse::px-captcha

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[–] whitecapstromgard@sh.itjust.works 67 points 1 year ago (4 children)

The correct way to fix traffic is public transportation: railways and subways.

[–] traches@sh.itjust.works 42 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The correct way to fix traffic is to stop designing the world around cars to the exclusion of absolutely everything the fuck else including humans.

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 year ago

And a whole lot of work from home!

[–] Valmond@lemmy.mindoki.com 8 points 1 year ago

And bike lanes, bike sharing etc.

[–] luciferofastora@lemmy.zip 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

...including working on security measures to ensure that people feel safe using them

[–] realharo@lemm.ee 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Definitely needs to be solved where it exists, but there are many places in the world that don't have this problem.

[–] luciferofastora@lemmy.zip 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Fair, but where I am it certainly is an argument I hear from many people - particularly women - that refuse to use public transport alone, particularly at night. There's only so many reports you can read about people being groped, sexually harassed or hurt, see the security being buddies with the loudest and rowdiest pack of gangsters in the section and look a female friend in the eye as they recount someone whipping our their wiener in front of them, then walking away like nothing happened. Eventually, "that won't happen to me" turns into "shit, it just might".

This may be an issue of selection bias, but downplaying it does the progress of public transport a disservice - infrastructural improvements need to go hand in hand with service improvements, if we want them to become a viable alternative.

Oh, by the way, this is a big city in southern Germany. We're not even the worst place.

[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Yep. Even if the transit IS safe, people might not PERCEIVE it as such. Transit needs to be extremely, ridiculously safe and clean and pleasant for people to consider switching.

[–] linearchaos@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Self-driving callable buses might not be a horrible thing. You open up an app that says I need a ride It tells you where within a mile to walk and send something on its way to drop by and pick you up.

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 48 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I've never heard this argument. I've heard car share apps could reduce parking issues but how traffic? It's still a car that can hold generally 4, same as anyone has

[–] CoderKat@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Uber does have a carpool option. But I'm not sure how often it gets used.

[–] merryo@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I used that a lot more before COVID

[–] JoBo@feddit.uk 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't understand how anyone ever thought they could reduce traffic. Even if they only served people who would otherwise have driven, a cab replacing an A to B and a C to D journey has to do three journeys to replace those two (A to B, B to C, and C to D). It was always going to increase traffic.

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Again I don't know this "everyone", I only heard about parking

[–] JoBo@feddit.uk 2 points 1 year ago

I didn't mention "everyone". I did mention "anyone". The authors of the linked article explicitly say that they thought it would reduce traffic, and that they were wrong (but for reasons other than the downright obvious).

[–] 1847953620@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Damn, people didn't think to check with you before they wrote things?

[–] GamingChairModel@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The text of the article explains that it's based on reducing the number of taxis (or cars for hire generally) on the road, reducing parking spots, and increasing carpooling:

In the 2010s, the Senseable City Lab at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where one of us serves as the director, was at the forefront of using Big Data to study how ride-hailing and ride-sharing could make our streets cleaner and more efficient. The findings appeared to be astonishing: With minimal delays to passengers, we could match riders and reduce the size of New York City taxi fleets by 40%. More people could get around in fewer cars for less money. We could reduce car ownership, and free up curbs and parking lots for new uses.

This utopian vision was not only compelling but within reach. After publishing our results, we started the first collaboration between MIT and Uber to research a then-new product: Uber Pool (now rebranded UberX Share), a service that allows riders to share cars when heading to similar destinations for a lower cost.

It goes on to explain that it's a problem of induced demand (same phenomenon that causes highway expansion not to actually help with congestion in the long term):

Alas, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Our research was technically right, but we had not taken into account changes in human behavior. Cars are more convenient and comfortable than walking, buses and subways — and that is why they are so popular. Make them even cheaper through ride-sharing and people are coaxed away from those other forms of transit.

This dynamic became clear in the data a few years later: On average, ride-hailing trips generated far more traffic and 69% more carbon dioxide than the trips they displaced.

We were proud of our contribution to ride-sharing but dismayed to see the results of a 2018 study that found that Uber Pool was so cheap it increased overall city travel: For every mile of personal driving it removed, it added 2.6 miles of people who otherwise would have taken another mode of transportation.

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Again, I've never heard this popularized.

I understand the concepts surfaced

[–] GamingChairModel@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Well, their previous research literally made its way into the Uber product, in the carpool option (Lyft did something similar at the same time). Whether you've heard of it or not, It was an influential idea that was actively implemented into these cities.

[–] AnAngryAlpaca@feddit.de 2 points 1 year ago

Not only that, it also takes passengers away from public transit because door to door is more convenient than waiting for a bus or changing lines in between.

[–] OfficerBribe@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Idea is that instead of 4 cars containing 1 person in each of them you get 1 car with 4 people in it. No idea how well it works in practice though, I assume most people who already drive will want to keep driving alone even if it is more expensive.

[–] xthexder@l.sw0.com 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The way I see them get used, the driver is never going anywhere themselves, they're just working as a taxi. I've never seen Uber reduce the number of cars required, but I have been in situations where we needed to call 2 Ubers when everyone would have fit if the driver's seat was available.

[–] OfficerBribe@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If that's the primary use case then it indeed does not help anyone. Have never used it so I assumed passengers use it to get a lift when going to work or some event like concert by someone who would travel there anyway.

[–] xthexder@l.sw0.com 2 points 1 year ago

That's definitely what the term ride-share used to mean, but companies like Uber and Lyft call themselves ride-share services now when really it's just a taxi service where drivers use their own cars.
I don't think the drivers have any control over which direction their next fare will take them. I've never met a driver that wasn't driving either full or part-time as a second job.

[–] Snapz@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You've never heard about capitalism? Zero labor cost means it's cheaper to have 100 taxis in your fleet when you would normally have 10.

If anything, I see it becoming the board game Othello to a degree, the big companies flood every inch of road with their cars instead of the other guys. I'd even see them using groups of their robo cars to create intentional traffic for their competitors, only to then communicate back to their own fleet where the only viable route through town is. This way it's like a tooth eat and if you want to get across town, you know it will take you 15 mins with Y brand and an hour plus with A brand.

Wake up and smell the death march called endless corporate growth.

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The fuck are you dooming about

[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

No, he's got a point. Lack of regulation in the rideshare industry will cause all sorts of problems.

[–] malloc@lemmy.world 32 points 1 year ago

Can’t read the article since it’s behind a paywall.

Uber/Lyft and ride share companies in general put more cars on the road. Even worse, most of them just sitting idle waiting for the app to send them a fare (idling vehicles bad for environment).

Robotaxis are no different. Most of them will just sit idle or drive around aimlessly until a rider(s) are assigned. If conditions are less than ideal, then they are often just found sitting until the conflict can be resolved.

Witnessed multiple times where an automated car just sits at a light with hazards on because the light was broken due to recent power surge. Just 1 downed vehicle in a 3 lane road in downtown area caused significant traffic to pile up.

I just want sane non-car centric infrastructure. Why is that so hard for this country to do? Need to undo this 1950s era of urban planning and transportation.

[–] aesthelete@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Being stuck in "traffic" surrounded by empty cars would make me want to walk into the ocean.

[–] spacebirb@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Oh god thank you for that depressing image

[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Uber was supposed

Uber was never supposed to do anything good.

In their beginning, Uber was a special purpose vehicle for Big Tech (=their investors) to perform political changes in all kinds of foreign countries, making them compliant, using methods that the others couldn't use openly.

After their evil head has left, they are just another startup that has become big and fat and brainless.

[–] otter@lemmy.ca 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In their beginning, Uber was a special purpose vehicle for Big Tech (=their investors) to perform political changes in all kinds of foreign countries, making them compliant, using methods that the others couldn't use openly.

Could you talk more about this / link things to read about it?

[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago

I don't know any comprehensive story.

Maybe their yearly and quarterly financial reports are still online. Look for the war budgets, 10 figure style.

And the news from that time, what they were actually doing and what were they bragging about.

[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Ridesharing apps could try to reduce the number of cars in the road but that would slow down their service. They can optimize anything they choose to, but right now they have been trying to flood the market with many drivers so rides are available quick with low prices. They don’t care about congestion or drivers. This is what you get.

The fact that more car rides happen with ridesharing should have been predictable, I guess. Suddenly car transport is available to people who can’t afford the high costs of keeping their own car in NYC. And it eliminates the parking problem.

[–] DarienGS@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Robotaxis could potentially help traffic by being smaller than current cars. The vast majority of journeys shouldn't require anything bigger than a Renault Twizy.

[–] Syreniac@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

On the one hand, you are right. On the other hand, will the consumers of robotaxis want to use small cars or will they push for full size ones?

[–] greavous@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Don't give them an option....

[–] creditCrazy@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago

Maybe because Im a car guy who enjoys driving but a self driving car is not only at best not even fixing car dependency but at least with a conventional car I can shift self driving cars I see being extremely boring to use there's a reason why I always use my bike for my daily commute and my car as a weekly whip and the country side