this post was submitted on 27 Jul 2023
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Fuck Cars

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A place to discuss problems of car centric infrastructure or how it hurts us all. Let's explore the bad world of Cars!

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[–] Yondu_the_Ravager@lemmy.world 44 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It really fucking sucks that the auto industry lobbied the US government so goddamn hard in the 30’s - 70’s and got so much of this country built on car centric infrastructure while also systemically dismantling countless forms of public transit nationwide too. Most major cities and metropolitan areas used to have a pretty comprehensive streetcar system, yet where are they now? That’s right, manufacturers like GM bought majority stakes in those companies and then had their infrastructure dismantled all in the name of “progress.”

[–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

As far as I'm aware, the only city in the western world that truly kept its pre-automobile streetcar network was Melbourne, Australia. A result is it today has the largest tram network of any city in the world.

It hurts my soul to imagine how basically every city in North America had similar networks, but they were almost completely annihilated, save for small fragments in a small handful of cities.

[–] Danatronic@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Technically Australia is east of the international date line so it's not even really the western world.

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[–] Kalkaline@lemmy.one 39 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

I did a bicycle+light rail for a year and it took me about 2x the time to get everywhere I needed to go, but I could do it in a car centric city. You can't expect rural folks to have access to public transportation though. Suburbs are a stretch too in some areas.

[–] DrAnthony@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Now I can only speak for the US, but most major cities have ring roads or some sort of bypass that would be perfect for a hub and spoke sort of setup alongside them. Maybe it's just the fact that the university I went to famously has a light rail system and the concept is just embedded in me, but I'd imagine the uptake of a park and ride approach with stations out in the burbs (certainly not all of them, but laid out so that you don't need to go more than a burb or two over to reach a station) would be high enough to be worth it. Putting in some shops at the stations like an airport foodcourt would help offset building costs and whatnot to a degree over time as well. Then you could tie the hubs into other major cities in the state and you've got yourself a compelling transit system, doubly so if those cities have subways.

[–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

A benefit of starting with a park-and-ride setup is, if you have good protected bike lanes and secure bike parking, you can encourage a lot of bike and ebike trips to the transit hubs. If every suburb isn't too far from a transit hub, that makes a compelling case for bikes and ebikes as first- and last-mile solutions for a lot of people. Maybe not everyone, and maybe not overnight, but definitely for a lot of people. And any improvement is still improvement.

[–] DrAnthony@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You know, the bike wrinkle is something I hadn't even considered. That's an awesome point and all the more reason why we need to build a better transit system.

[–] chocoladisco@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago

Multimodal transport is amazing. Ride bike to station - ride a fast train - ride from station to destination.

[–] echo@sopuli.xyz 4 points 1 year ago

I understand what it means, but "last mile" is a really funny term because walking a mile is apparently inconceivable to the average american

[–] HardlightCereal@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

That's why we need to build trains and trams in rural and suburban areas to save time and money

[–] Not_Alec_Baldwin@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

When I switched to riding my bike to work the commute was almost identical. However, I was riding in traffic and after my second close call with a car door I called it quits.

If we had dedicated bike lanes where I live I would 100% still be riding to work.

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[–] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 13 points 1 year ago

Yes, but context matters. Nobody is taking a train up the street to get groceries. And using a car (or a huge ass truck) for that is often overkill.

Bikes FTW!

[–] reallynotnick@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm struggling with this average vs potential. If I stand on a 3.5m wide sidewalk on average I'm going to see 15,000 people pass me by? And there is no room for potential improvement as the sidewalks are completely full on average? And how are we figuring cars can potentially be improved by 33%? Are all cars 3/4ths full already?

I'm very pro public transit, I'm just unclear what is being shown in this chart.

[–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They're showing capacity, i.e., a 3.5m sidewalk can move about 15k people per direction per hour. I'm guessing there's leeway for cars depending on intersection types/design, speed, etc., whereas there is much less variation in average speed for pedestrians.

[–] reallynotnick@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Average should be a measured real world quantity. A max theoretical value should never be average unless it's literally always at the max... on average.

[–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

The wording on the chart isn't the best, but I'm presuming they mean average capacity, not average ridership, because every city and every system will have its own factors that can impact the specific capacity of their transit modes. E.g., one system may have double-decker suburban rail vs another's single-decker, or one system may have articulated buses vs another's non-articulated. These differences would result in differing capacities, but the purpose of the chart is to show a ballpark number for what the typical capacity of a 3.5m corridor of each type would be, based on averaging system capacities in presumably many different cities.

[–] credo@laguna.chat 9 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Inefficient energy wise. Not timewise.

[–] biddy@feddit.nl 8 points 1 year ago

This visualization is space efficiency.

Obviously cars have terrible energy efficiency. The most efficient vehicle is a bicycle, since exercise is good for you it's arguably negative energy usage.

As for time efficiency, you have to consider car dependent development as a package. Everything spreads out, so overall there may not be an improvement in time efficiency, especially when you factor in the longer travel time of people not in cars. You could even consider the time spent working to pay for the car, or the time lost from people killed by the car, and I doubt cars would come out particularly time efficient then.

[–] mindrover@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

They're measuring how many people can pass through a fixed point in space in an hour, not how long it takes one person to get from point A to point B.

So not really time or energy, but quantity.

[–] txru@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Or throughput, which is important in areas with congestion, like busy streets and highways.

[–] Thadrax@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

And usage of space. And money, at least if you include all the externalities.

[–] herrvogel@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Depends on the city and the route. It takes me an hour to get to work by public transit, from my place to the office that's at the other end of the city. Google maps assures me it'd be longer if I drove, and knowing this city I definitely believe it.

[–] Machefi@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I don't understand this visualisation. Perhaps I'm lacking context. Anybody willing to do ELI5... maybe ELI15? What quantity is being compared and what are potential passengers?

[–] WhipTheLlama@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

The context is that they're showing one metric among many and are hoping you'll draw the conclusion they want: that cars are an inefficient way to travel. It'd be interesting to see distance and time metrics added. For example, while pedestrian capacity is pretty large, the distance travelled for any specific time period is short, so people aren't walking somewhere 100 miles away.

Similarly, door-to-door travel time can vary a lot. Suburban commuter rail around here is fast, but you need to drive to the station (because suburbs are designed for cars), wait for a train, commute on the train, then find your way to your actual destination from the station you get off the train at, so that might include walking or public transit.

Obviously, any one of the options can make the most sense in a given situation, but the infographic isn't trying to show that.

[–] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

I agree the graphic alone isn't super clear. I read it as the higher number being the potential capacity (such as in a particularly high-capacity system), and the lower number being the more typical capacity. Consider suburban rail, for instance. Some systems might have double-decker trains and more compact seating that allows for higher capacity, whereas some may have just single-decker trains. The double-decker system will have a higher capacity, whereas the single-decker might be more representative of what the "average" capacity of a suburban rail system might be, while the higher number might be more representative of the "potential" capacity of a suburban rail system when you really push it to its limit.

[–] nomadjoanne@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Efficiency is not the objective. In fact, were all energy and materials used in making and powering cars from relatively renewable sources, it wouldn't be a problem. I am aware they're not. All else being equal, efficiency is a worthwhile goal. But the tradeoff for inefficiency here is the freedom to go where you want when you want.

There are places here in Europe, contrary to what some people in this community might claim, that simply cannot be accessed by train. Smaller villages and the like.

Access to a car is useful. Ownership might not be unless you live there. But cars have their place.

[–] Thadrax@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But cars have their place.

True. However with all the downsides of cars, they should be only the fallback if most other options don't work. As it is, in many places, they are the highest priority that everything is planned around.

[–] nomadjoanne@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Yes. Agreed.

I don't own a car and don't want to, but I do rent one once in a while.

[–] Durotar@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

People don't drive cars because they think they're efficient in absolute numbers. They drive cars, because cars are way more comfortable and faster than anything else in everyday life.

[–] magiccupcake@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

They're only faster because transit infrastructure is built exclusively for cars at the expense of everyone else, including car drivers. Driving during rush hour sucks, but many people don't have a choice.

[–] ashok36@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The only thing I wish is that we had more accessible and safe single-seat vehicles. I bring 3 empty seats with me to work every day. I would be more than happy to have a cheap, efficient single seat vehicle for commuting if it was safe. I'm not going to ride a motorcycle 25 miles each way every day in the Florida heat and rain. I'm certainly not going to share the road with the maniacs we have here on a motorcycle.

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[–] HardlightCereal@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ain't nothing comfortable about being in an environment where one wrong move will end your life

[–] jerkface@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago

Not to mention how every time you drive a km, you kill a statistical fraction of a person. How do people do that fucking calculus? How many micromorts are you willing to inflict on others just to get some OJ from the store? People DON'T do the fucking calculus, that's how. They just push it from their minds, like they have been conditioned to by the religion of the automobile ever since birth.

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[–] Default_Defect@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Unfortunately, I'm immunocompromised, so most of these options are too high risk.

[–] Lobohobo@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There is always exceptions and in some areas, you have to have some cars. But removing most of the cars and replacing most of the 8 lanes of traffic with alternatives would be more than enough.

[–] Default_Defect@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I wasn't even disagreeing. Not sure why I'm being argued against.

[–] shadeless@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

From my perspective, they aren't arguing against you, but argue for your case (you, being immunocompromised, being one of the exceptions they are talking about)

[–] Default_Defect@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I suppose I'm too used to being on reddit and having people be needlessly aggressive and argumentative. You're right.

[–] Lobohobo@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

It's as they said: I'm not arguing against you. I think there is a healthy amount of traffic and cars and your condition is one of the reasons why. I can see how I did come off as doing so, so I apologize for the confusion.

[–] Hazdaz@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Gonna use some of that suburban rail to travel dooway-to-doorway. Oh wait. No, you can't. It is almost as if having options for different needs is important. Instead let's use overly simplistic explanations for a rather complicated problem.

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