Making this meme took longer than opening a book to understand what communism actually is.
What everyone points to as "communism" shares more in common with capitalism than anything else. They had authoritarian rulers and a small wealthy class that lords over the rest of the populace.
There is nothing "worker owned" about these examples and it only serves to spread FUD about moving away from capitalism towards a more human centric economy
The Red Scare is still working it's magic I see. I don't think many people think that communism is the perfect system. Even the ones who support it. It's just that after living in a capitalist hellhole our whole lives and watching the world burn, some of those ideas start to look like they are worth trying.
Star Trek is a good example of what the endgame of communism is supposed to look like. It's just the process of getting there that is hard to figure out.
Star Trek is an example of a post scarcity society. I worry about persisting military rank instead of a horizontal power structure.
counterpoint and some reading material for capitalism stans on here https://ia800309.us.archive.org/26/items/fp_Killing_Hope-US_Military_and_CIA_Interventions_Since_WWII-William_Blum/Killing_Hope-US_Military_and_CIA_Interventions_Since_WWII-William_Blum.pdf
Based comrade
The US political spectrum is leaning so far to the right. A US left is a France center or moderate right. So what Americans consider communism is merely what French consider moderate leftist.
Didn't the USSR just do state capitalism, and not actual communism or socialism? And weren't they also totalitarian & also not a democracy? Are people actually asking for what was happening in astern Europe or something else?
Yup. Also shot the anarchists, that worked with them and wanted democracy, in the back of the head during a meeting, The USSR then also did imperialism in their neighboring countries, deported a ton of people from those countries to death camps in siberia and allied with the nazies dividing Europe in their treaty
comment section frustratingly filled with McCarthy-brained liberals who have never critically examined their preconceptions about communism
I guess I just really don't understand the draw. Communism is a nice thought, until actual people are involved. People are corruptible, which is why communism is seen as utopian. It's an ideal that only works under perfect circumstances.
I guess I just really don’t understand the draw. ~~Communism~~Capitalism is a nice thought, until actual people are involved. People are corruptible, which is why ~~communism~~capitalism is seen as utopian. It’s an ideal that only works under perfect circumstances.
Bullshit take. Show me one instance of communism implemented in a democracy and I'll agree to your point, but you can't because there isn't one.
Pretty sure I explicitly struck out all references to communism so I don't know what you're talking about. My comment was about the fanciful idealism required to justify capitalism. Show me one instance of capitalism implemented in democracy (which didn't devolve into cronyism).
Switzerland? Netherlands? Hell, even France, Germany?
Invoking cronyism as a downside in itself is silly. It's not what matters, what matters is the quality of life. And just because US and a few other capitalist countries have drank from the neoliberal fountain and are unable to stop, it doesn't mean that that is the only way. In fact social democracies, of which there are quite a few examples around the world, are pretty much still capitalist democracies whit none of the crap neoliberal ideas lead to.
Yes, I don't disagree, except far more people benefit from our form of capitalism, and you don't see the death numbers you do from the absolute rule that communism demands.
This isn't to say there isn't any death due to capitalism. Or any strife, just certainly not on the same scale. I would say out biggest death toll comes at the hands of our military-industrial-complex being capitolistic.
The problem is, there's nothing better yet.
Add up chattel slavery, Trail of Tears, proxy wars, not-so-proxy wars, the general condition of the M-I-C you've mentioned, the general plight of the Global South, etc etc etc, and get back to me. I'm not sure the advantage is so definitive as you assert. "Externalities", the economists call them.
It 100% does not even come close. Not saying those deaths weren't terrible or unavoidable, absolutely not.
But also, you can't blame a capitolistic society for trail of tears or any other mass genocide that came before that. We didn't become capitolistic until 10 years after Trail of Tears ended.
Edit to add: granted, that doesn't say much about how Native Americans were treated post TOT. Though, it's certainly through capitalism that Indian casinos have become so successful. 245 tribes own casinos today, all of which rake in the funds.
Firstly, I know you're not going to justify genocide by saying the survivors of that genocide get to have casinos. That's so outrageously, ghoulishly evil that you can't possibly have meant that and I must have misunderstood.
Secondly, where do you get the idea that capitalism started in America in 1860?
Thirdly, you ignored everything else I asked you to add up. You made no mention of slavery, or the Global South.
Fourthly, what's fundamentally different between the colonial exploitations of mercantilism and private exploitations of capitalism?
I call your arithmetical integrity, or more laughably your ability, into question.
Lol. You definitely misunderstood. I didn't say in my comment that TOT was okay because now they have cassinos. I'm not sure how you could possibly get that out of what I wrote. The claim I'm arguing against is that capitalism has caused more deaths than communism, which isn't the case. Especially since capitalism wasn't America's economic governing factor until - yup - the 1860. Capitalism wasn't the cause of the TOT, but it was the cause of the survivors ability to create wealth for their tribes.
Again, because you somehow twisted what I wrote into saying it's okay that all those people died because casinos, the TOT was horrific. It shouldn't have happened. Nothing can make up for that, even the wealth made by their survivors. But it wasn't caused by capitalism, which is the original claim.
And no, I wasn't ignoring everything else you pointed to in terms of deaths under capitalism, because slavery and other horrors certainly were due to capitalism here in America. Though, it has nothing against rhe numbers stacked under communist rule.
I also want to point out that there are going to be deaths under every form of economic governance, because that's just human nature. There will always be people that kill other people, for a variety of reasons. The goal, then, is to find the one governance that kills the least amount of people in total.
I'll also point out that it's not like capitalism was absent one day in America, and then suddenly it was governing the country. Capitalism, like most forms of economic rulings, was a slow creep. It happened in small stages until the 1860s, when it became the dominating force in America.
Though, it has nothing against rhe numbers stacked under communist rule.
Let's see the numbers side by side then, since you're so confident
I mean there is, but all of the major nations fall somewhere in the middle of the capitalism / socialism spectrum.
China, a communist nation, has private businesses. The US, a capitalist nation, has public infrastructure and social safety nets.
It’s a gradient, and very few nations are 100% on the edge of the spectrum.
Well we're not praising fascism and corruption.
Eeehhhh there are plenty of Tankies around here that unironically simp for Stalin and Mao, (never Pol Pot for some reason though), and those regimes were frought with corruption and are often called "red fascism," so I wouldn't be so quick to say "we" here. "You" maybe, "me" definitely, but "we" is too strong of a word when there are plenty of people doing just that on lemmygrad right now, and lemmy.ml being a marxist instance some there as well (though the refugees mostly drowned them out now).
Mao and Stalin (though to a noticably lesser extent) actually had insightful things to say though. Mao's essays on epistemology are genuinely really fantastic. And that can be true alongside all of the show trials and sparrow murder which was genuinely really fucking bad.
Pol Pot meanwhile admitted to never having really ever read Marx, and his faction of the Communist Party of Cambodia was more concerned about Khmer ultranationalism and anti-Vietmamese sentiment that had been brewing over the course of French colonialism, then with anything to do with building socialism.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that we ought to take a nuanced, grounded view of historic socialisms that accounts for their success and failures, and doesn't fall into either mindless exoneration of awful shit, nor reflexively screeching "TANKIE TANKIE!!!" Every time anything vaguely socialist oriented comes up in discussion.
Mao and Stalin (though to a noticably lesser extent) actually had insightful things to say though. Mao's essays on epistemology are genuinely really fantastic.
And Hitler was a Vegetarian. Does that mean vegitarians should simp for Hitler because "he had at least one good idea?" I should hope not! Furthermore if they do, even if they only simped for his vegetarianism and not his "political career," it is gonna come off a bit different than they intend to most people.
By all means, keep those subs dedicated to defending all those atrocities and simping for despots, but people likely won't be fooled into thinking they only care about epistemology while they say nothing happened in Tienanman Square without a shred of irony.
LOL I see I struck a nerve. Keep downvoting, the salt seasons my post.
And Hitler was a Vegetarian. Does that mean vegitarians should simp for Hitler because "he had at least one good idea?" I should hope not! Furthermore if they do, even if they only simped for his vegetarianism and not his "political career," it is gonna come off a bit different than they intend to most people.
Hitler being a vegetarian had nothing to do with his fascism. Mao's Epistemology was built on Stalin's synthesizing of Marxism-Leninism from the works of Lenin and the experiences of the Russian Civil War, etc.
There's actual political philosophy here that we can think through, debate, apply, update, and revise. Mistakes or outright malicious behavior can be learned from or discarded as necessary, because Marxism has within it mechanisms for self criticism and recitification.
You can ascribe to that philosophy or not, I don't care. But this kind of kneejerk reaction isn't in line with the way these discussions actually happen within Marxism.
Do dogmatic Marxists who blindly defend bad shit exist? Yes. But they're commonly denounced and criticized for their garbage analysis.
You're taking a small subset of, mostly online weirdos, and stawmanning my position, and an entire branch of political philosophy.
By all means, keep those subs dedicated to defending all those atrocities and simping for despots, but people likely won't be fooled into thinking they only care about epistemology while they say nothing happened in Tienanman Square without a shred of irony
Buddy, I'm not trying to pull wool over your eyes or be sneaky. I literally said to not do this shit. I'm trying to get people to engage with these topics with nuance and critical thinking skills. Not blindly screech uniformed praise or condemnation based on kneejerk, emotional, preconceptions.
@SpookyBogMonster @ArcaneSlime, I'm a left commonsensist in my ideology, and I only can say, that any system which lacks of the sovereignty of the people, based only on a leader or a small elite, be it from the right or the left, necessarily becomes a fascist and corrupt dictatorship. It is irrelevant if it is called Stalin or the fat boy of North Korea on the left or banks and multinationals in capitalism that make the rules, the result for the people is the same. Fascism
This I can get behind.
The main issue is that they communism is economic policy, NOT social policy. While they do go hand in hand people often conflate the two. Many dictatorships use communism as a way to control the people but that doesn't mean that communism leads directly to dictatorships.
If they're using "communism" to control the people, then they're not really using communism
Is true Communism even possible if it's being attempted by flawed humans? Seems like it doesn't matter the economic system so much as the fact that people will ruin anything given enough time.
It’s about incentives. Worker oppression in Monarchy requires a bad King, in Feudalism bad lords, in Capitalism bad shareholders, and in Socialism self-hating workers. If you shared your workplace, would you push to remove your rights? Or to screw over your customers? And then argue for that against everyone else you share power with? The incentives are plainly better in a worker owned economy.
Respectfully, I can easily see a shared workplace at least encouraging screwing over customers. To me its an even more intense instance of the shareholder problem. Shareholders are obsessed with the money they're getting back with no real work but the risk inherent in the bet they made. The workers are working, for a livelihood, and of course will want to improve their quality of life. They're even more motivated to do so. And some of the best ways to do that, in the "make monkey brain happy" obvious short-term are the same policies the shareholders are already pushing. Will there be some pushback? Definitely, but you only have to sell a bunch of people on short-term easy money. And the lottery isn't popular because people are smart about this stuff.
Communism isn't the issue the same way Capitalism isn't the issue, the issue is rich people abusing working class and poor people. Removing democracy from these systems just make them absolutely horrid in the long run. Also China isn't communist it's state capitalist dictatorship.
There were no actual efforts to establish communism in eastern europe. Only autocratic regimes backed by soviet russia.
Yeah this is really messed up, I still don't know if I am going to stay on this site, too much annoying commies here