this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2023

263 points (98.2% liked)

Star Trek

10599 readers

25 users here now

r/startrek: The Next Generation

Star Trek news and discussion. No slash fic...

Maybe a little slash fic.

New to Star Trek and wondering where to start?

Rules

1 Be constructive

All posts/comments must be thoughtful and balanced.

2 Be welcoming

It is important that everyone from newbies to OG Trekkers feel welcome, no matter their gender, sexual orientation, religion or race.

3 Be truthful

All posts/comments must be factually accurate and verifiable. We are not a place for gossip, rumors, or manipulative or misleading content.

4 Be nice

If a polite way cannot be found to phrase what it is you want to say, don't say anything at all. Insulting or disparaging remarks about any human being are expressly not allowed.

5 Spoilers

Utilize the spoiler system for any and all spoilers relating to the most recently-aired episodes, as well as previews for upcoming episodes. There is no formal spoiler protection for episodes/films after they have been available for approximately one week.

6 Keep on-topic

All submissions must be directly about the Star Trek franchise (the shows, movies, books etc.). Off-topic discussions are welcome at c/quarks.

7 Meta

Questions and concerns about moderator actions should be brought forward via DM.

Upcoming Episodes

Date	Episode	Title
11-07	LD 5x04	"A Farewell to Farms"
11-14	LD 5x05	"Starbase 80?!"
11-21	LD 5x06	"Of Gods and Angels"
11-28	LD 5x07	"Fully Dilated"
12-05	LD 5x08	"Upper Decks"

Episode Discussion Archive

In Production

Strange New Worlds (2025)

Section 31 (2025-01-24)

Starfleet Academy (TBA)

In Development

Untitled comedy series

Wondering where to stream a series? Check here.

Allied Discord Server

founded 1 year ago

MODERATORS

ValueSubtracted@startrek.website

USSBurritoTruck@startrek.website

OpticalData@startrek.website

263

After decades lost, Star Trek’s original Enterprise model may have been found (arstechnica.com)

submitted 1 year ago by Corgana@startrek.website to c/startrek@startrek.website

24 comments fedilink hide all child comments

The listing went down quickly, and Roddenberry's son is trying to track it down.

top 24 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] HawlSera@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago

Turns out it was behind the fridge

[–] Madison420@lemmy.world -5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Dank, hope the thief gets charged.

[–] blanketswithsmallpox@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Not one for reading the article eh?

Even though the future fate of the model is uncertain, the username for the account and its other listings suggest that it specializes in selling artifacts found in storage lockers that end up without an owner, either due to failure to pay, abandonment, or death, perhaps giving a hint as to how the model was found.

[–] Madison420@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It was stolen, the locker likely had a name associated at some point, that's a Clue the rest is up to investigation.

So yes I read it but I can also do math and understand grand theft investigations given it's value is likely tens of thousands.

[–] blanketswithsmallpox@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It doesn't sound like anyone nor Rod Roddenberry is wanting an investigation though. They just want the model.

Aren't these things so old that the would be thief is likely dead anyway? Hence the dilapidated locker? Just feels like a needless revenge-boner to me.

[+] Madison420@lemmy.world -14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

If they want it or not fans will do it anyway, it's in their best interest to get the police involved so fans meddling are committing obstruction.

Maybe? We don't know that's the point of investigation. Dude stole history and should be punished for it, why are you implying a theft over time is absolved?

Ed: should I point out that knowingly keeping stolen property is a crime as well so whomever has it right now is commiting a new and fun crime unless they immediately get into contact with the Roddenberry's.

[–] blanketswithsmallpox@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm serious when I ask this. Can you point me to a source saying it was stolen? I can't find one.

[–] Madison420@lemmy.world -3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Sure, roddennberry lent it to the motion picture set guys and it was never returned even with gene asking for it directly. No 0 one misplaces ≈50lbs of wood that's 3ft long and has specific storage requirements.

Historians, like model-maker David Shaw, who wrote a detailed history of the lost 3-foot model, believe that for at least a time, the model sat on Roddenberry's desk and was his property. They believe Roddenberry loaned it to people working on the production of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, but it was never returned. There is even a record of Roddenberry writing to contacts at the production house inquiring to get it back to no avail.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/culture/2023/11/after-decades-lost-star-treks-original-enterprise-model-may-have-been-found/amp/

Ed: off work. And yes it was actually reported stolen.

https://www.therpf.com/forums/threads/red-alert-lost-3-ft-tos-enterprise-found.354596/

Ed: estimated value given current sales of available studio models. ≈3 million+

[–] CCMan1701A@startrek.website 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The studio is the owner right or the producers? I mean who really paid for the model is the owner. Not sure if that's the Roddenberry's or some other person from back in the day. I didn't realize there was a great search for the original small scale model.

Cool that it might be found.

[–] Madison420@lemmy.world -3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Gene is, it was built for Gene at genes direction and he continually requested it back.

It aught to be as interesting to find out how it came to be where it is as it is to the inevitable detailed inspection/investigation of the model should be.

Ed:

According to Majel Barrett-Roddenberry, “That particular ship was a real model and it *was Gene’s *– he loaned it to someone and Gene forgot to get it back and it was never returned. It’s a shame because it’s a piece of stolen property and since it has historical value – it is quite priceless.”

Ed:

https://redshirtsalwaysdie.com/2023/11/01/has-gene-roddenberys-missing-enterprise-been-found/

The model was made by prop-maker Richard Datin Jr under the direction of Star Trek series creator Gene Roddenberry in the preproduction phase of the series before it even had a full series order. It preceded an 11-foot model that was used for most of the shots in the series. However, the 3-footer was used for the opening credits sequence and all but one of the shots of the Enterprise in the series’ pilot, because the 11-foot version was not ready in time for shooting. It was also used sporadically in other shots in later episodes, including one where it actually acted as a model of the Enterprise sitting on a table.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/jerz.setonhill.edu/blog/2023/11/07/after-decades-lost-star-treks-original-enterprise-model-may-have-been-found/amp/

It was not at any time the studios, it was made for Gene before the series started.

[–] Prouvaire@kbin.social -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@CCMan1701A has a point. The model was built for production purposes, so it would have almost certainly been paid for - and therefore owned - by either by Desilu Studios or Norway Corporation (aka Norway Productions) depending on how the accounting was set up back in 1964. So unless Desilu/Norway sold or gifted the model to Roddenberry at some point, ie formally passed title to him, technically it would still be the property of the original corporate owner.

What I think quite possible though is that after TOS was cancelled Roddenberry took possession of a bunch of production assets nobody ever thought would have any value. Star Trek, after all, was a failed show. IIRC it was known that he used to do stuff like that, eg selling off merchandise to fans that - technically - he didn't own. It's just that nobody really cared too much back then.

Now as it so happens, Norway was actually Roddenberry's production company, but technically that doesn't matter, as there's a legal distinction between a corporation you own on the one hand, and you as an individual on the other. That's the whole purpose of setting up businesses as separate legal entities. So even if the model was originally purchased by and owned by Norway (as opposed to Desilu, which was sold to Paramount during the show's run) then Norway (Roddenberry's company) would still have needed to pass ownership to Gene Roddenberry the individual (via a gift or sale) in order for Majel Roddenberry's statement that "it was Gene's" to be strictly true. Of course, that would have been a cinch to do: Roddenberry, as owner/executive of Norway, simply sells or gives the model to Roddenberry the individual.

It's possible that this happened, ie that Desilu or Norway sold or gifted the model to Roddenberry, but it's also possible (especially if the model was owned by Desilu/Paramount) that he merely ended up with it, and that nobody questioned his legal right to it in the years since.

Personally, regardless of whether technically (ie from a legal or accounting perspective) Roddenberry did or did not own the model, I fully understand that Rod Roddenberry would be interested in recovering this seminal piece of Star Trek memorabilia, and I wouldn't have any issues if it stayed in the Roddenberry family or was gifted to an institution like the Smithsonian.

[–] Madison420@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

CCMan1701A](https://startrek.website/u/CCMan1701A) has a point. The model was built for production purposes, so it would have almost certainly been paid for - and therefore owned - by either by Desilu Studios or Norway Corporation (aka Norway Productions) depending on how the accounting was set up back in 1964. So unless Desilu/Norway sold or gifted the model to Roddenberry at some point, ie formally passed title to him, technically it would still be the property of the original corporate owner.

No it wasn't, it was genes and it sat on his desk before being loaned out to the studio who did not own it hence "loan". There is no ambiguity, the Roddenberry family has made this very very clear.

What I think quite possible though is that after TOS was cancelled Roddenberry took possession of a bunch of production assets nobody ever thought would have any value. Star Trek, after all, was a failed show. IIRC it was known that he used to do stuff like that, eg selling off merchandise to fans that - technically - he didn't own. It's just that nobody really cared too much back then.

No the model was made before any production, again documented and linked for source.

Now as it so happens, Norway was actually Roddenberry's production company, but technically that doesn't matter, as there's a legal distinction between a corporation you own on the one hand, and you as an individual on the other. That's the whole purpose of setting up businesses as separate legal entities. So even if the model was originally purchased by and owned by Norway (as opposed to Desilu, which was sold to Paramount during the show's run) then Norway (Roddenberry's company) would still have needed to pass ownership to Gene Roddenberry the individual (via a gift or sale) in order for Majel Roddenberry's statement that "it was Gene's" to be strictly true. Of course, that would have been a cinch to do: Roddenberry, as owner/executive of Norway, simply sells or gives the model to Roddenberry the individual.

Again, no ambiguity you're simply spinning tales when the book is already written.

It's possible that this happened, ie that Desilu or Norway sold or gifted the model to Roddenberry, but it's also possible (especially if the model was owned by Desilu/Paramount) that he merely ended up with it, and that nobody questioned his legal right to it in the years since.

Again it's documented, you're simply making things up.

Personally, regardless of whether technically (ie from a legal or accounting perspective) Roddenberry did or did not own the model, I fully understand that Rod Roddenberry would be interested in recovering this seminal piece of Star Trek memorabilia, and I wouldn't have any issues if it stayed in the Roddenberry family or was gifted to an institution like the Smithsonian.

It was part of genes personal property, no studio ever owned it point blank period. It wasn't even supposed to be used in filming and only was used because the 11ft model was not complete.

Ed: https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-att-us-rvc3&sca_esv=580377342&sxsrf=AM9HkKlf2a-SRCK4D22T3WcHjA_ayY9RdQ:1699418270564&q=roddenberry+to+katzenberg+1979&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjvvN2yyrOCAxXSl4kEHZ8VCAoQ0pQJegQICBAB&biw=384&bih=702&dpr=2.81#imgrc=mzOYIqfMi4kuVM

[–] Prouvaire@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No it wasn’t, it was genes and it sat on his desk before being loaned out to the studio

It was loaned out in the run-up to Star Trek The Motion Picture. It was not loaned to the studio at the time of production of the original series. I'm talking about the ownership of the model back in 1964, not 1978/79.

No the model was made before any production, again documented and linked for source.

Filming of the first scene of "The Cage" took place on 24 or 27 November 1964 (accounts vary).

The 3-foot model was commissioned from Richard Datin on 4 November 1964. He received the blueprints on 7 or 8 November 1964. An in-progress version was presented to Roddenberry on 15 November 1964, with Roddenberry apparently requesting a number of changes, ie "more detail". The model was delivered to Roddenberry on 14 December 1964 while "The Cage" was being filmed in Culver City.

Therefore the model was made during production, not before.

Source for most of these dates: http://www.shawcomputing.net/resources/shaw/1701-33-inch.html

And even if the model was made before production of "The Cage" started, it doesn't negate my point, which is that the model would almost certainly have been paid for, and therefore owned, by Desilu or Norway as it was clearly a production/pre-production expense. It was used consistently throughout the run of the show, and was even modified to more closely resemble the 11-foot model. I find it inconceivable that Roddenberry would have paid for it out of his own, personal, pocket.

Again it’s documented, you’re simply making things up.

I'm not making things up, I'm speculating based on what I know of business and Roddenberry himself. Roddenberry was known to appropriate items that were owned by the studio for his personal benefit, eg when he took film clippings after the show was cancelled and sold them through his private business Lincoln Enterprises.

Roddenberry merely stating "I've owned it since the Desilu days" in a letter doesn't necessarily make it so. Note I'm not claiming he didn't own it, I'm raising it as an academic possibility. And, as I said, I have no problems at all with the model going back to the Roddenberry family once it's been recovered.

[–] Madison420@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It was genes in 64 too. Gene paid, datin made it and by all accounts it was left with the studio until the studio Gene owned released it back to Gene for personal possession at the cancellation of tos.

Correct, the model was made preproduction, again that much is documented.

It was redesigned during production, the preproduction model is still the same model.

It was paid for by Gene and Norway as Norway presented it back to Gene commemoratively not desilu. And yet but all accounts he did.

This one is documented by the parties as at the very very very very least having been gifted to him commemoratively, no question about this model.

Again, third parties verify that the model of nothing else was absolutely genes possession having been gifted back to him as commemoration of the cancellation of tos. You shouldn't have a problem with it, it's theirs.

[–] Prouvaire@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But I don't have a problem with it. I'm actually very glad the model has been found cause it's an absolutely iconic item, and hope it's on its way to Rod Roddenberry.

[–] Madison420@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The Facebook thread is claiming the model maker for Picard says that rod got in touch with the seller and it's on its way back to the family to be restored.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/starshipmodeler/posts/10159422531316319

[–] Prouvaire@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Great news! The Matt Jefferies Enterprise is my second-favourite incarnation of the Enterprise (after the TMP refit), although I prefer the post-pilot version with the balls at the back of the nacelles rather than the grilles.

[–] Madison420@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I'm a weirdo and don't really have a preference for most of the main ships, it's the weird one shot ships that don't or didn't really have story behind them that I like. So like the models destroyed for wolf 359 are closer to my heart lol.

[–] Piecemakers3Dprints@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The Roddenberry's what now?

[–] Madison420@lemmy.world -5 points 1 year ago

The Roddenberry's as in the family or foundation. You act like it's an incomplete sentence and it isn't.

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You are failing to use Hanlon's Razor. Never attribute malice to that which can be explained by laziness or stupidity.

The model got loaned out to a movie production. It got stored and forgotten about. No one stole it, they just failed to return it because they were busy making a movie.

[–] Lev_Astov@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So, the statute of limitations on stolen property is one year in California, so probably not possible.

[–] Madison420@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

One year from Discovery. So one year from October 31 2023 iirc.