this post was submitted on 09 Nov 2023
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I have been self-employed since around 92, I have more failed startups under my belt than some you have had sex. My current business is 13 years old but it still makes me just a living,

I grew it from me and one bloke to 13 employees. Now here is the thing, when I had all those employees I earned less than I did when it was just 2 of us.

I didn't get to do much except sales, admin and fixing stuff those 13 Guys fucked up. After doing some sums I let attrition do the job and reduced back to a solo outfit.

Now I am tired before I start my day, my back hurts and lifting stuff that just two years ago was a breeze is no longer as easy. This is an age thing, I realised the other day that my pension plan is good for just about 3 hours. https://dustfactory.co.za You can look at my website here and until about 3 years ago it was supplying too many leads for me to reply to. COVID broke that., but I am tired more than not getting enough work. .

I ran a web dev company before this one in a small town in Africa and clients were limited, too much competition, people offering work at stupid low prices and I got tired of counting cents, so I went back to my trade.

I used my skills developed during that period to out perform all my opposition on the web for the woodworking business. The most important thing that I learned in the business was saying no, or even fuck off. You cannot offer value and quality if you are too cheap.

I have moved to a big city, reduced overheads and can now retire about 3 hours before I kick the bucket. I really don't want to get back in the death spiral competing with people charging too little for their service, mainly because I am convinced that a website that doesn't bring results is not an investment for any business.

I have started updating my skills again, updating the CMS that I built and have been using. also have registered a few domains to build sites on as test beds.

The numbers below are based on exchange rates and are in no way accurate, they are just an example. My question is as follows, let's say the cheap blokes are selling web sites for $100 and they place them, charge for hosting about $7 a month, but are doing no SEO, no forward planning, just put it up and forget it, How much should I be charging a month for full service?

Would you be willing to pay $250 a month for a site that includes all the SEO stuff like semantics, includes me sorting out your local SEO stuff, creating content regularly or would that seem like too much of a difference. I am assuming small businesses as clients.

Next check out my website and tell me if it creates confidence. Note not all the content is complete yet, but check out these pages please.

https://centuriondesign.co.za/

https://centuriondesign.co.za/pages/SEO.html

https://centuriondesign.co.za/pages/web-design.html

Tell me how I could improve them, What could I do that would help you make a decision?

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You need an irresistible offer, higher paying clients arbicharge contractor

I’ll be willing to pay $250 if you promise to make me $2500 . Read $100M offer by Alex Hormozi

[–] Virtual_Fox660@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

skill issue

[–] Rangerover15@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Maybe you're just not very good at it

[–] SpookyPlankton@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I‘m sorry is this supposed to be a joke that I don’t get? Or are you seriously advertising webdesign services with a website straight out of 1998 that doesn’t even work right on mobile?

[–] guymclarenza@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What mobile are you using? Please send screen shots so that I can diagnose the problem You can start a whatsapp conversation from the site.

I build websites that work as in get results, Design is not as important as function, but if you show me an example of what you think is not 1998 I'll code it.

[–] neverinlife@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah listen to this guy. Also why are random words capitalized? I would not trust these sites. These websites leave a lot to be desired.

[–] Routine-Ad-2840@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

when i see stuff like this i really wonder why i have not taken the plunge into something..... i think i poke way too many holes in everything i do and nothing ever feels finished because i am always thinking of something to improve..... i need some of that confidence OP has lol

[–] otakudayo@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I started looking at web dev/design companies in my area. Then in my country. As far as I can tell, almost all of them use WP, Wix or jQuery. The sites are, often, not great looking. Found a web design company's homepage with a performance score of 31. Companies in my target demographic usually have either no website or a terrible website lacking even the most basic SEO (Found a company website that doesn't even mention where they operate), with poor UX and outdated designs.

Like you, I'm always trying to think of things to improve, but I'm good with complex stuff so I've made myself an app that lets me build highly performant static sites incredibly quickly. Design and content takes time, but the actual code and deployment takes me virtually no time at all, unless I need to expand on my app to accomdodate some new design feature.

I spent about 2 months building the app and learning about website design, and how to operate a website. I'm still finishing up some touches before I start actively selling but... If you have technical skills, there's no reason not to give it a shot. The competition is abundant, but held back by poor quality and their outdated tools. I'm trying to leverage my high technical competence to save time so I can offer a (far) superior service at a better price.

[–] guymclarenza@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

99% of websites here us WP,

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[–] marcelDanz@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Hi, I hear your pain and struggle. You seem to be in a very tough position financially and mentally. First of all, get a big hug from you (I'm a hugger). Can I ask you what you're passionate about in the jobs and businesses that you run? I believe that having a passion for what you do is one of the most important things when running a business. Your customers will smell when you're not passionate about it and will run away.

To your questions:

  1. The pricing. I don't even know yet what you're selling me. You seem to be selling a product (the website) instead of results that I get from paying you (e.g. ease of mind, constant influx of customers, etc.). So if you're not clear about your value proposition, sit down and figure this out first. Before that, you don't need to do anything else because they will only waste your time and money.
  2. On the websites: My honest answer is that I wouldn't hire you if that is your best work.
    1. The design is completely outdated. My eyes are offended, and I don't know where to look. Things are hard to read, and images are in a bad resolution so everything is pixelated on my screen.
    2. Spacing and wireframe aid in my confusion, as they don't lead me through the page. I recommend learning the basics of UI/UX design before offering this as a product. Start with things like the Gestalt Principles, and the 60/30/10 rule of color palettes.
    3. Way too much text. Why do I need to read so much to understand what you're offering? Be clear, precise, and concise in your copywriting. "If you confuse you lose." Make it as easy for me as you can to say yes to whatever you're offering.
    4. No clear CTAs (call to action): you got a button in the hero section...that is not recognizable as such. Follow the design principle of affordance. Something needs to look like I can do the action with it that I want to do (e.g. a button looks like you can press it).

My recommendations in general are:

  • Figure out what your vision for your life is.
  • If you know that, think of ways how to achieve this vision.
  • Then create an action plan in detail that leads you towards your vision and execute it.
  • Find someone who did what you want to do and learn from them. u/General-Lobster-4837 recommended Alex Hormozi for example. If your goal is to build businesses with the sole purpose of returning more money and getting very rich, this is a great spot to start. If your vision is another one find someone that aligns with your vision.
  • Learn everything you can about the path you chose and that can help you reach your goal faster. Learning is a thing you do for your whole life not just when you're young. It is awesome that you reach out to this community to improve on what you're doing. You're doing great!

I'm open to chatting more if you'd like to get more input. :)

[–] guymclarenza@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (5 children)

a) Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it.

OK I get that, Selling websites bad idea, selling results good idea.

Explain what you mean by outdated, may point me at a couple of sites that are not outdated.

From an SEO perspective text gets results, It has done so for me for a few years. My wood working site has given me results because I supplied better information than any other local woodworking business. I am moving on from that purely because my body is no longer as co operative with the heavy lifting and stuff.

I will make changes to that get started button tomorrow, that is a must obviously.

I will look for some UX training and see what the latest ideas are, I have always felt that

[–] Nuocho@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

SEO gets people on your website but it doesn't get you orders if the website is not good.

[–] dopamineTHErapper@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Also, did you design around the mobile site? Or is the site just automatically adjusting? Things for mobile makes a big difference

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[–] brianl047@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

On the websites: My honest answer is that I wouldn't hire you if that is your best work.

Yeah I'm not a designer just an end user but it seems... off to me. I can't put a finger on it maybe the heading being off padding or too little spacing between the top and the words but I would agree, I personally would not buy it. Potentially a lot of people wouldn't.

[–] UnironicallyWatchSAO@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Just be honest with him and say it's completely terrible, sugarcoating won't help here. I thought I went back to 1990 there for a second.

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[–] Gemsix@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Ngl I need a hug too marcel

[–] PlanetMazZz@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] BarkBarkyBarkBark@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Someone downvoted you but I get the soup nazi reference take my upvote.

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[–] dopamineTHErapper@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I agree. Maybe you're a marketing guy, an SEO? I think you should hire a designer. One who und erstands basic design

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[–] nikkifusion@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Forget offering any service. Sounds like you have experience and knowledge. Sell that. A course - teach people what you know or how to do what you do. Maybe a paid newsletter. Sounds like you’re passionate about what you did/ do. Turn that into something people will buy. Then nobody can race you to bottom on price because nobody can offer what you can.

[–] EriksonEnterprises@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Honestly, and I say this respectfully, I think it's a little too late to the game.. your sites use outdated formats and code. Nowadays it's all about frameworks like Laravel, codeignitor, vue.js, etc with dynamic view frameworks like bootstrap

Past this I don't think anyone is going to pay a monthly subscription like that for SEO when people sell SEO for a onetime flat fee of usually dirt cheap (whether it works or not). Also, SEO is only half of the battle nowadays. Gone are the days where you'd rank high with the right keywords... It's more than that like engagement/clicks, and even payments to Google ads or whomever you want to be high on

I'm sorry I just wanted to be honest about this

There is money to be made in buying and selling domain names though, unfortunately that's also out the window as most places snatch and hold for over $1,500+ that people just aren't gonna pay...

[–] guymclarenza@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Woodguy used to be my site some years ago, I let it go because "the brand was not serious enough" Dumbest advice I ever got. When it was mine it ranked on Google, now it does not.

I aim to please business owners not web designers. I would take down the woodguy site and take away all that flashy crap. It impresses designers, looks impressive but delivers no results.

[–] guymclarenza@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Just as a matter of interest are you seriously suggesting that using Laravel, Bootstrap et al to code php is better option than coding by hand and that websites not using those tools are inferior, I suppose you think WordPress is great as well?

The html extension makes no difference to the operation of the site, I use .htaccess to fetch the php file.

People selling SEO services for a flat fee are charlatans, Websites need to evolve because the rules are changing, My website may look like it was designed in 1996 but the content as been updated many many times,

I could also use Joomla, Drupal, WordPress like all my opposition but here is the thing My site uses 1/10th of the code that Wordpress does that is why I scored 97% on the SEO ranker tool, My site hasn't been up for a month and already I have had a couple visit attributed to the SERPs.

I am currently using a heatmap app to test where the pain points are and will be making some changes once I have enough data.

Data driven development is the future not some arbitrary development platform.

[–] ItsMeOSRS@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What’s this SEO score you talk about? You can have a stunning website using any combination of frameworks and have great SEO.

Also frameworks are there to help you and speed up development, so maybe you can put more time on the user experience than custom making whatever you’re doing.

User Experience is #1 and the user experience on your is dull, I recommend you look into that

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[–] SectUncle@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Market research is key tbh. Find the thing that people would want. Maybe there's a deficit for something. Also, the location is really important.

[–] srgold12@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Your websites aren't showing very well in mobile (this is crucial), but besides something which can be fixed, I'm not clear on the first part of your post concerning your woodwork and design business... are you going to sell the company or wanting to sell it now?

[–] jesustellezllc@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Get rid of the .html extension. Also, your homepage does not give confidence, it looks very outdated and more like a blog than an actual homepage. Best of luck

[–] LavenderAutist@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Serious people make serious posts

You're not a serious person

I'm not here for a debate, just giving you a wake up call

Some observations to show I'm serious:

First. Your title has nothing to do with your post and starts things off with a negative attitude. If you wanted more effective feedback, you would write the question right from the start and would have a more welcoming or positive title. It suggests a lack of maturity and perhaps a sense of entitled thinking and / or an inability the changes. But most importantly, someone reading this has to hunt through the post to begin to figure out what you are asking help about. Wading through a bunch of nonsense and complaints to get to some odd question about pricing. And then random questions about your service in general. And to be clear, it's confusing to read.

Second. If you want to be a good entrepreneur and successful at soliciting feedback, you need to spend time thinking through how you are going to organize it. I would spend 2-4 hours if necessary to make something look professional or clear to an audience that I thought I could get good feedback from; for free even. I would write an outline and then draft out something. Then I would wait a day and review what I wrote and edited it a couple of times; potentially adding or removing things. Then I would give that draft to several others to take a look at first to make sure it was clear and concise. After that I would incorporate their feedback and then review it one more time before posting it. That's what a serious person would do. Instead you post a stream of conscious thing that is cluttered and all over the place. If I were a potential customer, I wouldn't take you seriously unless I absolutely needed your products and there was no other companies providing the service or there were no substitutes for the products or services you sold.

I hope you take this feedback as honest criticisms that you can use to improve yourself. Good luck.

[–] guymclarenza@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Thank you, noted

[–] Peruvian-in-TX@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

You know why you're getting hate on the website.

Your site is a wall of text, I'm not reading all that bro. Make it interactive add more pics, you're advertising kitchen remodels right. Shouldn't the website be elegant so you get higher end clients? If your site looks like it hasn't been updated since 98 then your equipment probably hasn't been updated either. I'll pass.

[–] TheZimboKing@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I would not pay 10 bucks for a design like that.

[–] TILTNSTACK@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hey, while im not in need of your services, I hear what you’re saying.

This was me in a way, peaked at 27 staff.

And, to compound the issues, I’d added a bunch of services to attract more business due to financial struggle.

I was always putting out fires, while poorly handling the stress this created.

What moved the needle for me?

Going deep into systems and processes.

I began looking at how we delivered our service and realized we were more inefficient than I realized.

So I just focused on the core services that made the bulk of revenue and took the rest of our services down. Then as a team, we looked at ways to systemize various parts of our value delivery.

And there were many. For example, we began eliminating meetings for meetings sake.

By getting granular in our SOP’s we found a lot of what we were doing was hard work, not smart work.

Anyway, once we got our systems dialed in, we took off.

Hope this provides at least a little hope and encouragement.

[–] guymclarenza@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago
[–] Silver_Cake4582@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

The website truly looks like it was created in 1996 and never updated since. Just being honest.

[–] kiamori@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You cannot sell sites with broken mobile design. On android scroll down the page some and you will see sections that are off screen.

$250/month and you would need a premium solution that solves a problem.

You could focus on using a platform that does most of the work for you and provides more profit instead of what you're doing now.

[–] guymclarenza@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

ahh yes. dust factory, I am busy with a redesign and some mods. Thanks for pointing that out, The images on that site are not yet responsive but will be in a couple of days.

[–] kiamori@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Couple of days is too long, most dev teams can create a fully functioning site in a couple of days.

If you focus on providing a solution to a niche market, you can create a platform that allows you to create a fully functioning SEO optimized website in a couple hours. My team develops web solutions specific to real estate, legal, non-profit and professional service industries. We can have a fully functional semi-custom site online within 2 hours and we're only charging $59/month for this service which includes live data.

Not to tear your down, but this is what you are competing against.

I would advise you to use F12, choose lighthouse, and then analyze page to see all of the issues your site has.

[–] dopamineTHErapper@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Actually even though everything you guys are saying is right but you'd be surprised. I've sold websites with that even showing the prospect of single website.

[–] AKaseman@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I’m not entirely sure what your ask is in this post. I’m sorry to say but as a business owner your designs aren’t up to modern standards. If I were in the market for web designers I’d spend about 5 seconds on your site before moving on. Others are echoing the same sentiment so maybe take a good hard look at what’s going on.

[–] kevinghiga@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Learn wordpress and elementor. Also Woocommerce. You will be able to build way better looking sites. Also learn how to optimize them for speed and you're set.

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[–] Vegetable_Log3622@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

You need to improve your skills!

[–] teknosophy_com@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The site looks good and great examples.

The only issue is, webdevs are pretty common now, and a lot of them are fighting for work.

If you're good at running small businesses (I had the EXACT SAME EXPERIENCE with employees: I'd do a 12 hr day THEN have to clean up after their destruction!), then research what small businesses are in high demand. I ended up getting into in-home tech support for seniors, which mostly involves password resets and removal of Fake Rental WiFi. I have a feeling you could handle that, and the market is vastly under-served. Feel free to pick my brain about it!

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[–] vertexsalad@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

For less than $250 a month i can just use webflow or readymag and do it all myself... better.

[–] vertexsalad@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Awful awful websites. Yuk. even a free template would look better.

You can not win me as a client, looking for design services for a kitchen when you can't even pick a nicely designed website template.

Do us all a favour and remove those eye sores from the web, just use https://readymag.com

[–] 2pongz@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Yup. Any Webflow cloneable would smoke his hand coded website with ease.

[–] eltgreigh@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I would have absolutely 0 confidence in you building a professional looking website that converts customers. The designs are awful, and you clearly aren’t converting if you can’t sell. Perhaps reevaluate your skill set?

[–] Odd_Quote_3258@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I hope I don't encounter this that I see many people post where the business grows but they actually start earning less with added stress :(

[–] ChoppyRice@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Read $100m offers by Alex Hormozi. Charge as much as you can by providing the most value

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