NFL

I don't think there's ever been a better litmus test for basic football knowledge/history than a person's stance on Belichick.

If you can't recognize him as the GOAT coach, you're a fraud of a fan. It's that simple.

I think its a combination of both. I think Bill was largely responsible for those 3 out 4 4 SB wins in the early 2000s that made Brady hyped up and then Brady git better and better and by the end was making Bill look better. You can argue that Bill made Brady what he was and that in different circumstances Brady would have never become what he did. Early 2000s Brady was not bearly as good as Brady was in the 30s ans 40s.

Meh.

I’m not suggesting he was a bad coach, but a history of cheating & having Brady as QB made his legacy. He is not great. Period

He is a great DC but an average HC.

I mean obviously he was the GOAT in his era. He's 72, has had the team going south for 4 straight years, let's usher in a new era even if that means our defenses for the next 5 years about 20% worse than if Belichick was coaching them.

I hate the Pats but come on, he's the best coach of this era. Maybe ever. They won all those championships, the whole team was good to do that, and the coach gets credit for that.

2 things are true: Belichick was a great coach, and the game has passed him by. You don’t have to pretend he sucked for 20 years and you also don’t have to pretend he doesn’t suck now

Browns 1991-1995 - bad

Patriots before Tom - okay

Patriots with Tom - Great

Patriots after Tom - Bad

BB is a great coach but I don't think it is completely unjustified to question his methods and call him some infallible GOAT. Andy Reid has arguably had more diversified success across multiple teams, GMs, QBs etc. Having Tom was obviously a huge boon to Bill.

I'm not saying Andy is better than Bill but he has certainly proved success under a variety of situations. I think people are allowed to call these discrepancies out, it isn't revisionist history, Bill's record without Tom Brady is poor, and that's a decent sample size at this point.

Arguably, the defences he’s still producing (2022, 2021, 2020) have kept the Patriots from rebuilding properly.

No they haven't. This is the NFL not the NBA lottery. Draft picks through the 4th round can all have a ton of value and net you really good players no matter where you pick. Every year there are dozens of guys that ball out that weren't anywhere close to being picked top 32.

Lets also not forget the extent to which BB whiffed on a lot of FA moves as well. If anything the strength of our defense should be HELPING our rebuild, not hurting it.

Did he make Bill the greatest defensive mind in history, no!

Bill can be the greatest defensive mind in history and also have been somewhat "made" by Brady. Being a HC is more than just scheme, especially more than just scheme on one side of the ball. People still need to buy in to your system, you still need to bring in the right people around you to run the team.

Bill did that for 20 years, but lets not act like Brady and others (like ernie adams and dante scarnecia) didn't help him immensely.

It's a simple fact that he is a losing HC without Brady. He's had like 4 years to build something without Brady and its looked like the same shit every year. Even going back to 2019 when Gronk retired and Brady clearly started regressing from his old self.

The Patriots just aren't special without Brady. They aren't feared. The Patriots of the last 5 seasons have felt more like the 90s Browns than the greatest dynasty in the history of football. That should be telling considering who was the primary person behind both.

Bill's an all time great coach. However, he's sucked as gm. He's too full of himself to do both jobs and has hindered the team by trying his in the cheap when they had cap space.

He’s going to need to have more success post Brady as HC to shake the narrative.

Hell KD has had way more success than Belichick did after leaving the warriors, but still gets dogged as needing Steph to win.

Honestly, the level of hate has become ridiculous.

There's no denying Belichick is one of the best defensive minds in the NFL, time has proven that. Even before Brady entered the league Belichick was a tough defense to beat.

However it is notable to have the GOAT quarterback on the other side of the ball for 20+ years, highly influencing his strategy.

To have a QB with the ability to go toe to toe with the best defenses way more often than not and have the team in a winning position or comeback position is defending your position to win.

It's just now trying to fill that vacuum left on offense that was once a significant piece to the defensive strategy for 20+ years is difficult to replace.

Bill rules

People think in extremes without even realising they're doing it. Shows like First take, how quick the media moves, it's beyond mental and it can't be stopped

He’s the GOAT coach. He and pats nation still live rent free in the heads of so many jealous people. Get over it. I’ve had enough of all the naysayers, concern trolls and overall assholes saying shit about BB.

Brady won. Bill has struggled heavily without him.That's all the revision you need.

BB was IMO an undisputed great DC. But as a HC, I can't get past the fact that with Brady, he has a stellar record, but without Brady, he is a mediocre, losing HC. He was nothing as an HC before Brady, and nothing after, and we have reams and reams of before and after data on it.

So ... maybe the best DC ever, but not as an HC.

His pre and post Brady record just isn’t very good. The cheating scandals don’t help him either. He’s still a hall of fame coach, but this tarnishes his legacy a bit.

This season has been EXTREMELY injury hit as well. I keep saying it but IMO, it would just be short-sighted to completely bail on him when the last three years have been solid and he has a very long track record of success. In my mind, Mike Tomlin is the same: If Tomlin's team just cratered next year, I'd give him the next QB after Kenny Pickett rather than can him instantly.

Lol the goalposts have been moved too far to defend BB. I'm pretty sure we can find threads that claimed he could win with scrubs because he is such a genius

Bill the GM is the reason this team stinks. Bill the coach, still great at his job!

Tom Brady having a GOAT Super Bowl performance, but Bill sucking:

28 of 48 for 505 yards, 3TDs, 0 Interceptions - Loss.

Tom Brady sucking, but Bill having a GOAT Super Bowl performance:

21 of 35 for 262, 0TDs, 1 Interception - Win

But yeah, it's all Tom.

Yeah thank you - the "bill can't win without Brady" bullshit flying around is insanely disrespectful.

Bill also is historically great against first time QBs, performed well with jimmy garoppolo, Brian hoyer, Jacoby brissett, and especially Matt Cassel. Brock purdy only started like eight or so games last year? Anyone related to football went nuts about it. Matt Cassel started almost every game that season and, because the pats had three rings already and were just coming off the 18-1 season. Everyone was impressed, but took it in stride - genius bill b does it again.

Brady is undeniably a transcendent star, but bill made him who he is and made sure that his teams were too tier in the other phases besides offense, if you can even chalk all that up to tom.

And...let's not act like that bucs team didn't have a great defense, too.

You forgot to mention the constant cheating.

Dumb question - can someone explain the "average finish in points per drive" stat that OP posted? In what way is it an advantage for Brady?

One of my hottest takes is that Super Bowl 53 is my favorite SB. If you're a fan of football strategy nothing beats the chess match between McVay and Belichick (and conversely Wade Phillips v. Josh McDaniels).

has gone too far

Did any of you go to college?

It turns out when you have the GOAT at QB, you can focus your draft picks on the defensive side of the ball. I think Brady deserves some credit for giving Belicheck the ability to focus defense.

I wonder how many first round picks went to improving the offense for the Patriots. Seems like the Patriots did the same thing Green Bay did with Rodgers: stack the defense and hope that their elite QB can improve the guys around them on offense.

Problem is the guy contributes nothing to the offense.

And this is why I consider Bill to be the best defensive coordinator in history but not in the top 3 HCs of all time. Also why I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to claim someone other than Brady is the qb goat. This isn't basketball, football is a complimentary and complex sport that renders objective conversations about who the best ever are nearly useless.