this post was submitted on 18 Nov 2023
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[–] blazera@kbin.social 204 points 10 months ago (6 children)

Mounting evidence from exercise science indicates that women are physiologically better suited than men to endurance efforts such as running marathons.

We have a lot of marathon data. There is a large, consistent difference showing the opposite. This article is horrendously unscientific, so many claims, assumptions, and over summarizing and simplifying

[–] EatATaco@lemm.ee 46 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Author does address this, btw. I still think it's a bad argument. I just couldn't fathom that they would say this and not further clarify.

[–] blazera@kbin.social 67 points 10 months ago (1 children)

they make claims and assumptions to address it, they dont really cite anything. Shit like this "The inequity between male and female athletes is a result not of inherent biological differences between the sexes but of biases in how they are treated in sports." is a hypothesis, but it is not being stated as one, it's being stated as fact. It's a testable hypothesis, they could have controlled for the variable of pace setting runners that they bring up by only looking at statistics of running events that do not have this variable.

And like, the whole premise could be true, that women were also hunters, modern runners with modern sports medicine arent ideal evidence, that kind of endurance might not have been needed for their hunting, women are still humans and humans have the greatest running stamina of any animal. But besides capability, ancient humans also could have had roles determined by sex, it's at least prevalent in other apes like gorillas. Either way is possible without more solid evidence and it's pretty crazy to say one way or another is scientifically true.

[–] reliv3@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I actually dont think testing this hypothesis is as easy as you think. You can't just control for social biases when analyzing marathon data because these social biases are longitudinal. At a young age, women quickly learn from modern society that they are physically inferior to men. Because of this, the best bet for testing this hypothesis is to look at ancient societies, because these societies are largely independent from our modern society.

[–] Tavarin@lemmy.ca 8 points 10 months ago (8 children)

I mean, it's also unlikely to be true. The difference between male and female bodies is the equivalent of years of high end steroid use.

If you wouldn't let a man who had taken steroids for a decade and still takes them compete with other men, then you already acknowledge the biological advantage men have over women at physical sports.

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[–] Murvel@lemm.ee 39 points 10 months ago (19 children)

It took me literally less than a minute to google and disprove that claim in this 'article':

The Olympic records for the event are 2:06:32 hours for men, set by Samuel Wanjiru in 2008, and 2:23:07 hours for women, set by Tiki Gelana in 2012.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathons_at_the_Olympics#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DIn_2020%2C_both_the_men%27s%2Cby_Tiki_Gelana_in_2012.?wprov=sfla1

This article is not scientific, its simply an opinion piece and should be treated as such. And honestly I don't even think it was a good opinion piece. And why is it hosted on Scientific American?

[–] chakan2@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago

And why is it hosted on Scientific American?

Because if you say things like this enough, people believe you

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[–] someguy3@lemmy.world 118 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

assumed evolution was acting primarily on men, and women were merely passive beneficiaries of both the meat supply and evolutionary progress.

He was superimposing the idea of male superiority through hunting onto the Ainu and into the past.

This fixation on male superiority was a sign of the times not just in academia but in society at large.''

At that time, the conventional wisdom was that women were incapable of completing such a physically demanding task

Scholars following Man the Hunter dogma relied on this belief in women's limited physical capacities

Today these biased assumptions persist in both the scientific literature and the public consciousness.

"Powers of Estrogen" infographic.

This is quite the charged language and I'm not even halfway through. Throw in a bunch of other stuff about the Boston marathon and gender presentation in movies, yeah this isn't that good of an article.

Before I'm downvoted into oblivion, we probably all took part in hunting. They've found the speed differences in running between ages and gender are not extreme, so we likely all went out running and hunting together. But men probably took on the more dangerous and physical aspects, but everyone with a spear is a more capable unit.

[–] EatATaco@lemm.ee 28 points 10 months ago (6 children)

I read most of it, not bothering with full paragraphs when I could see the idea at the beginning, and from what I saw it doesn't get any better.

It points out that the only physical sport activity they women excel at is ultra marathons. it then goes on to day that flexibility when it comes to family roles was important for survival. And this I absolutely agree with and it is certainly the case that women can hunt too.

But the author just seemingly completely ignores the argument that women can still fill the role, even if there is some kind of specialization that makes one sex generally better at one task then the other. The fact that we are different almost certainly means this is the case.

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[–] wesley@yall.theatl.social 9 points 10 months ago

And speed and strength aren't even the only attributes needed for effective hunting in the first place. Seems to me that a variety of skills would be beneficial

[–] Plague_Doctor@lemmy.world 73 points 10 months ago (4 children)

The idea that 'males hunted because they were stronger, etc' was cope to rationalize the fact they are less reproductively valuable than females. Four males don't come back from a hunt, village mourns- Four females don't come the village dies.

[–] Dkarma@lemmy.world 31 points 10 months ago (4 children)

I'm willing to believe that men hunted more frequently for this reason alone. Women are simply too valuable. I wonder if this is the origin of a dowry as well. Compensation for the tribe or family losing the ability to expand.

[–] SeaJ@lemm.ee 19 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I think you mean bride price. A dowry is something the woman's family gives to the husband's family.

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[–] WhiteHawk@lemmy.world 19 points 10 months ago (5 children)

Why would anyone need to cope with the value of individuals in pre-civilization society? These things are not relevant anymore, an individual's value to society is mostly determined through productivity and wealth now.

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[–] snek@lemmy.world 15 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (7 children)

If this village is made up of 8 people, then 4 male hunters not returning also means the village dies.

You need...err...two to tango.

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[–] crocat@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I think this might be the reason for the strength disparity. Tasks that require strong people tend to be more dangerous but a sensible tribe leader would send the strongest to do these tasks whether they are male or female. A tribe where the strength balance leans female will grow slower than a tribe where there is equal distribution which will grow slower than one with male balance. This selection effect would cause evolution in that direction.

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[–] rusty_spoon@lemmy.ml 60 points 10 months ago (1 children)

This explains why my legs get tired when my wife drags me out shopping...

[–] MoodyRaincloud@feddit.nl 17 points 10 months ago

I'm a natural sprinter. Very fast on short distances. But the endless slog from one shop to the next, with no respite, no idea when it will end. When we come home I'm dead tired and empty. She's dead tired and full.

[–] i_have_no_enemies@lemmy.world 48 points 10 months ago

“Man the Hunter has dominated the study of human evolution for nearly half a century & pervaded popular culture. [But] it was the arrival of agriculture that led to rigid gendered roles & economic inequality. Hunting belonged to everyone.”

[–] Sagifurius@lemm.ee 31 points 10 months ago (2 children)

That was a theory? I was under the impression Male/Female size differentiation was from men fighting men.

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 21 points 10 months ago (6 children)

No, one of the theories is actually that early homo sapiens groups were mostly closely related and interbred often. That's what have them advantage over other species. We can see evidence of that in the DNA. Men fighting men came later, probably with first settlements and dependence on local resources.

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[–] JoBo@feddit.uk 17 points 10 months ago (5 children)

Apes fighting apes, maybe. AFAIK, size differences between the sexes has not increased since we first evolved. It's part of our pre-human genetic heritage, not an evolutionary pressure on homo sapiens.

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[–] Arthur_Leywin@lemmy.world 30 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Where's that damn summary bot

[–] TheBestUsername@lemmy.world 27 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Here's a summary:

The article "The Theory That Men Evolved to Hunt and Women Evolved to Gather Is Wrong" challenges the long-held assumption that men were the primary hunters and women were the primary gatherers in our evolutionary past. This assumption, often referred to as the "Man the Hunter" hypothesis, has been deeply ingrained in popular culture and scientific discourse.

However, mounting evidence from various fields, including anthropology, archaeology, and exercise physiology, suggests that this simplistic division of labor is inaccurate. The article highlights several key points that contradict the traditional view:

  1. Women are physiologically well-suited for endurance activities, including hunting, due to their higher aerobic capacity and fat utilization efficiency.

  2. There is a growing body of evidence from archaeological sites and ethnographic studies that indicates women actively participated in hunting in various societies across different time periods and cultural contexts.

  3. The assumption that women's childcare responsibilities limited their hunting activities is challenged by observations of women hunting with their children in present-day hunter-gatherer communities.

In conclusion, the article argues that the "Man the Hunter" hypothesis is no longer supported by the available evidence and that a more nuanced understanding of gender roles in human evolution is necessary. Women played a more significant role in hunting than previously thought, and their contributions were essential for the survival and success of our ancestral populations.

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[–] Fades@lemmy.world 21 points 10 months ago (20 children)

Really should not be a surprise to anyone. The patriarchy has done serious damage over the many many past and present generations

[–] gregorum@lemm.ee 28 points 10 months ago

To anyone who studied anthropology in even an amateur manner, this male/female division of labor never made any damn sense. It’s echoed in so many hominid and pre-hominid species, and it’s even seen an echoes in society today. Men and women, males and females, and all monkey and ape-descendant species share these tasks.

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[–] Silverseren@kbin.social 16 points 10 months ago (2 children)

This is far from the first paper indicating this, despite how the media is framing it. There's been more and more re-investigation of findings from the past century and earlier, with much of it not only finding that a number of the "warrior" skeletons discussed in the past were women, but also a lot of the physical evidence otherwise showing that women were involved in these activities.

Both men and women gathered and both men and women hunted. Often together and they may have had different overall skillsets depending on personal body structure and endurance. But there's often enough of an overlap anyways that everyone could be involved in everything in some fashion.

The long-standing claim that women couldn't be involved in hunting because of biology is like claiming that women can't be muscular or lift weights because of biology. It's a ridiculous claim.

[–] DrBob@lemmy.ca 22 points 10 months ago (3 children)

I think there are two sets of claims in the article. The first set - women hunt - is blindingly obvious and it was stupid to ever think anything different. The second set - women are better suited for endurance activities is dubious and weakly argued.

Timothy Noakes is as good a scholar as we have in endurance exercise, and he points out that all of the ultramarathon evidence is a bit dubious because the sport does not attract the best runners. So East African runners dominate the marathon scene (especially the Kalenjins) but are virtually absent from the ultramarathon world. Why? No prize money or sponsorship. So the fact that European ancestry dominates the longer distance is more a function of who's running than it is a difference in physiology.

So looking at the role of estrogen in race times requires some deeper understanding of who's running and what their overall potential is. I'll note that the ultra scene is generally populated by an older crowd who are following the " if I can't go faster I'll go longer" approach. So maybe men maintain competitive marathon times later into life so are slower to join the ultra scene?

Noakes also points out that a smaller body size works for women in several ways - smaller bodies use less energy to move, generate less heat, and shed heat more effectively. So without correcting body size, sex based comparisons are not deeply informative.

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[–] Tedesche@lemmy.world 15 points 10 months ago (5 children)

I'll wait until there's greater consensus in the field. These papers reek of scientists who have strong political motivations to find the answers they seek, and I'm not expert enough to critique their work.

[–] Neato@kbin.social 10 points 10 months ago (12 children)

Well you did just critique them. But without offering any meaningful criticism, just political feelings.

[–] killeronthecorner@lemmy.world 10 points 10 months ago

They aren't the one making the claims though? Burden of proof doesn't disappear because of the sensitivities of the subject matter, and biases do matter, especially where the claim is insufficiently evidenced.

I am fully open to the claims of this paper but fully unconvinced by the meagre evidence provided. I will read into it more over the coming weeks though to see if better literature exists.

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[–] lemmie689@lemmy.sdf.org 9 points 10 months ago

It's been a long time since I've been in Anthropology class, but this isn't something we were taught academically. Cultural Anthro is all theory-based, academics get paid to publish theory arguments. Imo, biologically, women carried babies, men didn't, there would have been associated cultural roles to accomodate this as successfully as possible. The idea that it's popular theory this meant men hunted and women gathered is just sensationalist. It's niether competely wrong nor completely right. There are elements of both throughout many cultures. It's the idea that it's all or nothing is wrong.

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[–] MechanicalJester@lemm.ee 8 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Okay, but it's not just size and strength. Women have better color discrimination, better landmark sense. Men have better time/speed sense. While pregnant the long gestational period makes the woman more at risk.

Women certainly can hunt, men can certainly harvest berries, but these other traits came about for reasons. If we were wrong as to why, that doesn't change the differences.

[–] julietOscarEcho@sh.itjust.works 43 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

Colour discrimination sounds super important to finding camouflaged prey animals and landmark sense sounds super important to wide ranging and unpredictable hunts. I dunno dude, unless you can cite experts in exolutionary biology supporting that inference, I'm going to say you're taking out of your arse.

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