this post was submitted on 22 Nov 2023
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Intro

Just following up on some recent posts about the NBA In-Season Tournament and the general attitude that this sub seems to have (i.e. the tournament has been a massive success and anyone that doesn't think so is an idiot who hates fun).

Numbers to Keep In Mind (TV Ratings)

Opening Day: ~2.5m

Christmas: ~4m

Finals: ~12m

Tournament (So Far): ~1.7m

Breaking Down the Tournament Numbers

  • Only 37/60 games have been played so far entering Tuesday.
  • Ratings are "up" 55% when compared to games in a similar window last year.
  • NOTE: The comparison does not seem to be rigorous, only surface level. For example, it was reported that the NBA saw a 73% increase in the tournament game between PHO vs. LAL than last year's game which was between MIL vs. MIN. It seems a bit simplistic to compare a game between Lebron vs. KD to a game last year with MIL vs. MIN (i.e. if Lebron and KD faced off last year in a similar window then the increase in TV ratings this year would probably not be as high as 73%). However, it is possible for a reverse effect to take place (i.e. a better game was played in last year's window compared to this year's window) so let's just accept the increase at face value.
  • Even taking the increase in TV ratings at face value, the tournament is not as popular as opening day, let alone Christmas games.
  • NOTE: The most important tournament games have not been played yet. It's likely we get some increased viewership during the final group stage game and also during the knockout rounds.

False Assumptions

Here are some common assumptions I see that I don't think have sound reasoning:

  1. The tournament is just like tournaments in soccer (i.e. domestic cups, Champions League).
  2. The tournament will get more popular as time goes on.

Reasoning

  1. I'm not a huge soccer fan, so if anyone else would like to chime in feel free. From my understanding, the reason why domestic cups are exciting is because you are playing against teams you wouldn't normally play in your "regular season". For example, in England if you are in the Premier League you are only playing against a subset of English teams (supposedly the best teams in England). However, the FA cup actually has you play against all the English teams, so the winner of it can claim to be the best club in the country. This is similar for other domestic cups in Spain, Germany, France, etc. Similarly, the Champions League allows the best clubs to compete internationally to see who's the best in Europe. This is not comparable to the NBA because it's the same 30 teams playing each other. If you want to see who's the best team in the NBA you have to wait until June not December.
  2. This leads to the second point. Why would the tournament magically get better as it goes on? You could see why the soccer tournaments get better as they go on because there's actually something you're playing for. But the NBA tournament does not have anything meaningful. If you want to see who's the best team in the NBA that's decided in the Finals. If you want to see who's the best team in North America/the World then the NBA is not playing teams outside the league (ex. college teams, G-League teams, international teams). Thus it's not clear why the tournament would get more popular as time goes on. It's possible it just follows a box-office pattern (i.e. strong in the beginning but fades as time goes on).

Subjective Experience

  • My enjoyment of the tournament has followed a box-office pattern. From a Raptors fan perspective, the first game was a close, competitive, exciting home-game that we narrowly lost. My interest was high and I was excited to see how the rest of the tournament played out. Our second game we got blown out, on the road and are now probably knocked out. I don't have as much excitement in watching the final two tournament games.
  • As a neutral fan watching some other teams it was also exciting at the start but once the novelty wore off my interest started to fade. For example, the first slate of tournament games on November 3rd were all close and exciting to watch. However, as the tournament went on we've seen more blow outs and the novelty has kinda worn out. I just finished watching Lakers vs. Jazz and it wasn't that great of a game. Obviously close games are exciting but blow-outs aren't more exciting just because it's a tournament game.
  • The courts are legitimately bad. I wouldn't be surprised if this is affecting ratings. It's hard to track players sometimes and I don't need bright colors to keep my attention like I'm a child.
  • Once my team is out, I don't really care who wins in Vegas. Compared to the Finals, I still follow the NBA when my team gets eliminated because I want to see who wins the LOB.
  • The point differential doesn't necessarily make the end of games more exciting (just look at TOR-ORL and LAL-UTA for examples from yesterday).
  • The tournament being played on Tuesdays/Fridays kind of ruins the flow of it. Especially when they didn't play on election night Tuesday.
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[–] Mbanicek64@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

The whole thing is a scam to try to extract more TV money out of bidders. It is new and they made it visually different so people would notice. The reality is the whole thing is a goofy gimmick that isn't going to continue to motivate players going forward. They are going along with the farse because it may benefit them financially down the road. The 500k is nice, but the real money is in the TV deal.

[–] HeyVeddy@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

The champions league is more like the NBA playoffs, not the in season tournament.

The in season tournament is more like the league cup, or even the FA cup.

People count trophies and add it to their cabinet. In the NBA we only do that for players but now we can do it for teams too.

As for you not caring because you're almost out, that's when you should care the most. You now really need your team to win, as if you put money on it, and that makes it more exciting.

[–] Outrageous-Salary969@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

Damn, why'd the mods remove this?

[–] TheGuyInTheKnown@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

Winning a cup is something exciting, even if your team isn’t going to win a league. If you win both it’s better than winning just one thing and if your just winning the cup you won at least something. It’s less important than a league and in this case the Nba championship, but it’s the next best thing.

That basically means that fans can celebrate a secondary objective, which can be nice if they’re chance at winning the league is low. In the case of the Nba, teams like the Pistons, Rockets or Magic are far from championship contenders if we are honest.

A cup were some teams might overperform in a knockout game could be a chance for those teams to do something relevant. As a Piston fan you are unlikely to see your team win anything other than the new tournament for years, so it’s a slim hope of celebrating success.

This kind of leads to a problem with the current setup as well. Since games are part of the regular season as well it can get hard to distinguish between new tournament and regular season. If you completely separate them it also allows teams to focus on winning either the nba championship, the new tournament or both which could make things more interesting.

[–] venmome10cents@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

How is viewership overall (i.e. non-tournament mid-week games?).

Personally, I've tuned in to at least a few more Thursday evening NBA games (some of them in-season tournament games) simply because the competing NFL matchups have been really underwhelming. I'm certainly not specifically seeking out IST games. Not sure how many viewers are in that category, but it's not zero.

[–] NYdude777@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

I only watch my favorite team and couldn't give a flying fuck about arbitrarily declaring random regular season games a "tournament game"

Useless BS that only the easily distracted care about. Ooo look a shiny object...

[–] Live_Substance_8519@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

it’s impossible to look at 55% increase as anything other than an enormous success.

i’d be interested in how they can keep it interesting season over season. if it becomes sort of a prestige thing, players would buy in even more than just the extra chunk of change they get. would be awesome to get like an international tourney too just to settle those debates about “world champion”

[–] OptionK@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

I’ve been doing my part and refusing watch any in season tournament games. Hopefully we can all work together to get this thing shut down.

[–] Justin_telligent@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

It will get better ,nobody expected it to be good right from the jump , it’s a cultural thing. But pls Adam silver get rid of those fckin courts,my eyes were bleeding from that Chicago court

[–] KnickedUp@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

I am enjoying the new twist.

[–] Critical-Adhole@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

Yes it’s been insanely successful. r/nba was totally and completely wrong. Again.

[–] sinik_ko@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago
[–] EnoughLawfulness3163@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

Just anecdotal, but the people I know who only watch playoffs aren't watching still. Maybe they will when it gets closer to the championship?

Seems like the players care though, so that's cool.

[–] AlternativeDevil616@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

The courts are so bad that I actually feel bad for the players having to navigate them. The digital ads constantly changing the color of the floor. The solid colors so you can really see where the floorboards are and it makes the sharp lines on the floor much harder to notice.

[–] ANAL_CAVITIES@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

Successful in making me want to actively not watch 90% of the games I may have watched otherwise because of a hideous court that'll give me a headache, sure.

[–] Judio_Jones@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

There needs to be some kind of reason to win. It's hard to care about winning when winning doesn't mean anything.

[–] Alex_O7@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

I would only comment on your 2 point.

  1. yes the In season tournament has (almost) nothing to do with soccer league Cups. Not even considering Champions League, which is actually more similar to the NBA as a whole, or better to the World Cup or the Olympics, since it is a multi-national Cup. Anyway if the In-Season Tournament is not like the League Cups, i'll only be happy. The reality is that FA Cup, Copa del Rey, Coppa Italia or others are only really followed around the final, but nobody cares of what happens before, that's why also almost nobody care who wins.

On the other hand, NBA in season tournament is more similar to European basketball (not soccer) national cups. And in European basketball usually the in season Cups are played in a weekend span, are super fun and followed because everything stops and the 8 best (usually, some League just pick the 4 best, some pick 6, etc) teams plays in a win-or-go-home bracket. In European basketball the league cup is more regarded because of that. It is also played exactly mid season, which also is a good thing because some teams are better early on or some are better in single elimination games rather than playoffs...

  1. the tournament would be better as it goes on because the best team will survive. The best thing is to have early in the season teams that would play for a title. It is not like we will see the same level of intensity for a December game than what we will see in few weeks.

Finally you can arbitrarily say that this title is worth nothing but if you think about it, you can say the same for the NBA Finals. What makes the NBA Finals champion the champion? Why not consider the RS best team the champion? It is only conventional, so you can also say ring means nothing, as you can say it for the Tournament. Rather I would see this Cup as an opportunity to crown an early season Champion, and eventually it would be fun to see a matchup between the NBA Finals champions and the In Season Tournament champs...

[–] snuffaluffagus74@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

Yes, you have too look at this in a future metric. Majority of sports takes time to build. The longer the event the more people get attached to it. Another aspect is that there using this to expand their brand beyond till after football is over. If the interest can continue throughout December that is good for the long term. The last and most important is TV ratings and the new contracts. With the exit of Bally and the new contract coming up there showing the bidders what there able to get advertising wise for the whole year. With multiple bidders and streaming rights fans of basketball could potentially watch the most basketball ever without cable. With ABC/ESPN, TNT, and now NBC wanting to broadcast games you could have basketball on 7 days a week. Then with streaming companies like Amazon, YouTube, Apple TV you'd be able to watch all the games. Having these good numbers is good for the contract. Notice I haven't even talked about international market.

[–] ablackcloudupahead@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

It's pretty good...it's alright...it's not great...but it's fine

[–] MajorSeaworthiness26@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

The courts!! I thought I was the only one. Good lawd they are bad, obnoxious, and indubitably annoying.

[–] diabeticSugarAddict@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

Unpopular opinion- the tournament was created to facilitate more sports betting by creating fake hype. thats it. Shits so dumb.

If the problem is that players don't typically try hard enough in November/December, the solution should be to minimize the number of games in a season (which would NEVER happen because money but let's pretend) similarly there would be less issues with load management because if youre the best player on a team with a 50-60 game schedule, you're going to want to show up and play.

Imagine if there were actual stakes to the tournament like home court advantage in the finals/playoffs, granted as many people have said, 500k to young/lower paid players is certainly a motivator, but IMO sends the wrong message that love of the game/determination to be a champion/winner isn't what drives players... its money( which even if that is the case for a majority of players, not how you want to market the league) which is shitty.

[–] herseyhawkins33@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

Other than being told these are in season tourney games on the broadcast and being distracted by the mostly ugly courts, I don't see a difference so far. But I'm a huge basketball fan so I'm tuning into the games regardless. Hopefully the semis and final game in Vegas will be competitive.

[–] WeeTooLo@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

They made the worst mistake by trying to draw parallels with soccer cups.

There are many cup competitions played in pretty much all European countries, just like the NBA has now. Some are sudden death, some are best of 5 etc.

In Spain for example it's the Copa del Rey and it's pretty highly regarded by everyone.

[–] PooperJackson@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

Have they shown the same amount of nationally televised games so far this season as they did seasons past? Because that's going to impact ratings a lot

[–] dkleckner88@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

Do we have an avg margin of victory for the IST games vs regular?

Seems like we've seem a bunch oo close IST games so far.

[–] MeSeeks76@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

Imagine you've bought tickets months ago and you rock up and see that abomination of a basketball court being used. Urgh! That's trash

[–] Ok_Guarantee_2194@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

Gonna be real. It feels like a happy meal but in the bad way

[–] -KFBR392@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

Why would it be exciting to watch a Premiere League team play someone from 3 leagues down?

[–] Pewpewlazrs@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

I think they should bring in international clubs out to the US to play against the NBA teams. That would be way fun to watch.

[–] tristan_mayer@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

I really hope they eventually make it so it takes place over 2-3 weeks where ALL of the games are tournament. Give it a much more match madness feel so you can actually get invested in it.

[–] Pretend-Square8686@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

I don't even know what it is and haven't payed attention outside it just being regular season games

[–] Separate_Tip_7349@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

This is the first year in a few years I can watch the NBA and don't even give a shit about all of this. TBH I haven't watched one tournament game. Don't care! It's a dumb gimmick.

[–] Puzzleheaded-Mix9909@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago
[–] bslawjen@alien.top 1 points 11 months ago

The Premier League winner gets to claim to be the best team in the country, that's the league. The FA cup winner doesn't get that privilege really because the FA Cup has less prestige than the Premier League title. That goes for all domestic league and cup competitions.

Anyway, playing against teams from higher leagues is certainly exciting for the lower league teams and fans, but that isn't really the case for the top teams in the Premier League. The exciting part for them is playing against top teams in a knockout game.