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Question: Where would MJ rank all-time if the Bulls never drafted Pippen, and MJ had only won between 0-2 rings? (alien.top)
submitted 2 years ago by LoveIslandFansRawk@alien.top to c/nba@nba.space
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The stat that kills me is that after MJ retired the first time in 1993, the next year the Bulls team only won 2 less games without him in the regular season (and made it to game 7 of the second round in the playoffs): contrast that with the when LeBron left the Cavs in 2010, the next season the Cavs only won 19 games total (where they had won 61 games with him in the 09-10 regular season).

Without MJ in his mid-prime: minus-2 wins

Without LeBron in his early-prime: minus-42 wins

I actually believe the debate would still be between MJ and LeBron for GOAT, even if MJ or LeBron had won only 1 ring (and I would still have LeBron slightly ahead of MJ if LeBron had gone 1-9 in the Finals instead of 4-6). Bball nerd Ben Taylor (and Nate Duncan, love or hate him) studies the film and all the stats on the GOATs and he has KG tied with Duncan for the 7-8 spots in the Top 10, ahead of Wilt, Bird, Magic, Curry, Kobe, etc. KG only won 1 ring, but context matters: he was drafted and spent his first 12 years playing in NBA hell in Minny. I can't hate on KG for being drafted by a terribly mismanaged organization, just like I can understand the context of Duncan's position on the best managed/coached team of all-time with multiple HOF-ers and great role players galore. Basketball is a team sport, so team context matters for all of these players' careers

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[–] ObiOneKenobae@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago (3 children)

He was considered the GOAT by tons of people after the first one.

[–] Nuclearsunburn@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

Would LeBron universally be considered the GOAT now given the same career?

[–] panchettaz@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

When you have Larry Bird and Magic Johnson saying they've never seen a guy like MJ, even when he hadn't yet won a championship (in Bird's case), then he's automatically contending as the elite of all elites. The rings just seal the deal.

[–] LoveIslandFansRawk@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

"tons of people" = your uncles' uncles in Chicago

[–] UnsuspectingS1ut@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago (4 children)

I think hypothetical rankings are my new least favorite thing from this sub

[–] MorryD@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Because it makes you uncomfortable realizing that a lot of a player’s legacy is outside of their control?

[–] UnsuspectingS1ut@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

Because I find the obsession with ranking players annoying in general and now we’re doing it for a players hypothetical career in made up scenarios. That’s dumb

[–] TheOkComputerGuy@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

No because making up “what if this person had these accolades or didn’t” is a dumb waste of time since we have a hard enough time agreeing on what they DID do.

You take a non-scientific subjective process and add MORE subjectivity to it. How is this fun for you guys? The answer is whatever you want it to be based on what you’re changing their stats too. Want them to be seen more favorably? Make up accolades, less favorably, what if they didn’t do the things we watched them do?

Maybe get a hobby instead….

[–] MorryD@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Making hypotheticals about team-based accolades can make it easier to recognize individual impact.

The fact you’re trying to say it’s a pointless thought exercise just proves how much of your ranking of players is based off the singular results we have to go off of.

[–] TheOkComputerGuy@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

Ok name the 100% agreed upon top ten so we can pull away accolades and keep this entire thing in order.

Oh there isn’t one?

Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.

[–] Final-Luck-4222@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

Because it's such a massive hypothetical and so many scenarios can play out and you can surely come to your preferred conclusion by applying some far fetched assumption. I highly doubt it wi go that way but someone can make a reach for it.

No clue how things play out in a situation like this.

[–] SolarPoweredDevil@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It begs the question of where Curry would rank all time if he leaves the Warriors to join a contender and three-peats. Surely that would hypothetically rank him above hypothetical 2 ring Jordan and hypothetical 1 ring LeBron.

[–] LoveIslandFansRawk@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

Are you trying to say that LeBron hitting 40k points will be the next Y2K moment in world history, homeskillet?

[–] Nuclearsunburn@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

Some people hate “what if” questions and others love them.

[–] Schwalm@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

Where would this sub rank if hypotheticals didn’t exist?

[–] supersaiyanegghead@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

He’d be sitting around Hakeem, Wilt, Curry, Dr J tier of players. Maybe higher bcos of his crazy scoring stats

[–] LoveIslandFansRawk@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

Ben Taylor has Hakeem at #5, Wilt about #9 and Curry and Dr J in the late-teens, I believe-ish. Ben has KG (1-1 in the Finals) tied with Duncan for #7-8. I think he has Shaq at #6. MJ going something 1-1 in the Finals would put him in that #5 Hakeem territory... although I would love to live in a world where the debate would still be MJ vs LeBron for the GOAT spot even if one or both only had 1 ring

[–] Marsupial73@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

Bald Demar Derozan with a gambling addiction

[–] Professional-Ant8445@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The Bulls were 61-21 in 1991 and 65-17 in 1992. They coasted in 1993.

[–] LoveIslandFansRawk@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Then they coast again in 1994...

Crazy that LeBron won 66 games in 09 tho with THAT team! LeBron WAS NOT COASTING in 2009, I promise you that Coast God!

[–] Individual_Eye_5221@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

And lost to the Orlando Magic

[–] No_Stay4471@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Question: where would I rank all time if I were 7 feet, won 20 rings, but murdered two homeless people for the thrill of it?

[–] cat_piss_lint_trap@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

You would rank as Republican vice presidential nominee

[–] DerekMorganBAUxxi@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

He’d still win 5 or 6 without Pippen because Reggie Miller was in the same draft

[–] TremendoSlap@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Where did Pippen go instead? Who replaces him on the Bulls? Please give us the reimagined rosters for the entire league so we can try to give an answer, thank you

[–] LoveIslandFansRawk@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

Pippen went to Cleveland. Instead the Bulls got Kenny "the Jet" Smith. Otherwise, the rosters can be imagined as basically the same. MJ does a whole lot of losing in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounds of the playoffs, no longer the GOAT God

[–] loco_mixer@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

now we ranking hypothetical scenarios?

[–] moppelh@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

GOAT

[–] tuxedo7777@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

D Wade-ish suffering with insecurities & gambling issues…

[–] charcharthegamer@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

Nice try, Scottie.

[–] SaugaGolfer@alien.top 1 points 2 years ago

Waste of a post. What if basketball never existed where would MJ be?