Depends on what country you are in, but I know that in my country, that belongs to the company not you. Get legal advice.
this post was submitted on 25 Nov 2023
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It's your companies tool. If you used any of their company time, resources (wifi or computer), or even used it for work purposes it's their property.
Just because you did it or most of it on your own time doesn't matter as it can easily be considered unpaid overtime or just work initiative.
On that last part, that's what I learned in business school (many years ago) that I"m not 100% sure is true but salaried employee's time isn't just 9-5 so my 'own time' might not even qualify here.
I did this on my PC though and haven't used it at work yet (but will need to soon so that's why I'm asking) but that's not something I want to raise because then they'll make me use their equipment and I"m way more efficient on my own system.
Tbh reading your comments, you sound so absurdly naive you should just not try to commercialize this. You mention you spent 90% of your time developing this on your own time and 10% on company time. You say you are thinking of using this tool in your own work — you might “NEED” to use this on your work. This is just beyond me.
Either don’t tell them at all, don’t use this tool at work and stop being so naive, or just give up on this invention. Seriously, this is your invention, why would you use this at work, implicating yourself with a possible conflict of interest, even mention the invention at all.
You are going to need to talk to a lawyer to help with your strategy. You might be able to get permission from the company to open source it, but don’t talk about it at all with your employer until you are working with a lawyer. They may have other suggestions as well based on what specifically your employment agreement says. Good luck!
Legally, consult a lawyer, etc.
Practically, you need to weigh how much your employer will care or know. There are (petty/shitty) companies that sue to exert control, but if your market is relatively small, it’s not worth it to the company. Just don’t talk about your side hustle at work.
Decent chance my company doesn't care but if I was going to bring it up, wanted to be sure I knew all my options.
Hearing loud and clear to consult a lawyer/take this seriously. Thank you!
Speak with someone in HR about a tool you are considering developing and get an agreement
It was “your business partners” idea and asked you to get involved based on your background. Did you tell coworkers you made it?
If it's not novel, what is there to own, aside from the physical tool?
Being not novel means it can't be patented, so there's no IP to own
Yeah, not trying to oversell what this is. It's not an IP'able tool... but it could make money, money my company would probably prefer to make instead of me. Some of the things I've made in the past too, we've kept to maintain a competitive advantage (I don't know how much it's truly an advantage but that's what we've done)
Yeah, but...... what could your company actually 'own'?
IANAL, but presumably if the idea isn't novel, and can't be patented, then anyone can make it. That includes you. They can't own your invention because there's nothing to own. You also can't own it, either.
But IP comes in many forms. From your comments, my guess is you might have some CAD or other kind of engineering templates that you've developed. THOSE might be owned by the company.
From my life, I'm an IT consultant. I've built tools while working for other companies that I couldn't bring with me when I left. That's just how it is. But nothing stops me from re-developing those tools using the knowledge in my head (as long as it doesn't step on the toes of their trademarks, copyright, etc.).
But really, you signed a thing that said they'd own your inventions while you work there. You willingly did this, of your own accord, and presumably this is the kind of thing it's meant to cover. How much is your word worth to you?
I'd say the easiest thing is to have a conversation with them. Maybe they'd like to commercialise it (this is where 3M's post-it notes came from) and cut you in, or maybe they'd be willing to put something on paper saying they don't mind if you do. Maybe they say no... that would suck - but if it were me and I had developed most of the company templates, it wouldn't make me feel very valued
Patents aren't the only IP.
The source code is copyrightable. The entire software could be a trade secret (see: the Coca-Cola recipe). Any branding would be a trademark. There's plenty to own here.
Yeah, I kind of mentioned that in my reply to his reply.
I haven't seen anywhere that he mentions it's actually software, but a lot of people seem to assume this is the case.
My initial assumption was that he's engineered a physical tool, rather than coded a piece of software, and so on the basis of it being a non-novel physical tool that already exists on the world, I asserted that there's nothing to own, from an IP perspective, aside from (as I said), the engineering templates he's developed... which in theory he could rebuild on his own time, assuming that this is a non-novel physical device that already exists in the world.
If it's software that he's built on company time... yeah, definitely some IP ownership concerns to be had there.
As far as trade secrets go, if I came by the coca cola recipe by some honest means, say by finding it in a scrapbook in the bottom of a chest of drawers that once belonged to John Pemberton's second wife, AFAIK and INAL there's nothing legally protecting it - the primary legal protection exists in the employment agreement between OP and employer. At least in my country.
Google says this may not be the case in the US, but that it still requires a novel element, which would seem to exclude this instance.
In any case, best to just open a dialogue.
Your story reminds me of this true story.
Steve Wozniak was working at Hewlett-Packard when he designed the Apple II. He did it on his own time but he was often in his office after hours while he worked on the design.
He showed it to his bosses and they dismissed it as a hobbyist item that didn't fit with HP's business model, so he was free and clear when he, Steve Jobs, and angel investor Mike Markkula launched the product.
Yes, you need guidance from a lawyer, not Redditors.
That's an interesting story! Definitely picking up from the answers to take this seriously though which is what I was looking for. Thank you!
go talk to your boss. say you built it completely off hours and pitch him your offer. if this is serious you might want him invest in it and let you work on it during your downtime.
Don't do this unless you and your boss are best friends. If the product relates to your work's business then the boss is more likely to be upset that you built it on your own rather than for work.
Don’t involve the company what so ever
This is horrible advice. You start this discussion with your company's legal team. His boss doesn't care about the tool but he will care about the legality of it because it's his direct report.
Does your employer even know you built that tool? I mean, you did it in 10% of your company time, but did you show him anything? Is your employer big? Is this software going to be so big that the sale is noteworthy? I mean, if we are talking about a sale of 5k, nobody's going to care. If you're going to sell this thing for a million, of course they're going to care, unless your company is so huge that they actually don't care. But then, how would they find out? Why would they care? Are they even interested in the software? Could you give me some more details?
How would they even know OP is selling the tool, OP can easily disguise himself behind a shell company and a sales guy. This post is so stupid, I cannot believe people are this naive.
So use a shell company to commit IP fraud. That’s some great advice you’re giving to this person. Surely this can’t end badly.
Not IP fraud if he did it on his own time.
Okay, but that’s not what the post said?
He said he used 10% of company time, nobody can prove he did that though, so he might claim he didn’t use company time at all
If you know there is a market, and the market is big enough to be more than ramen profitable, then you should pursue this. If it is truly only hobby-tier, (e.g. less than your rent/month) don't risk your job for that.
There are two comments of yours that conflict:
> While 90% of the time I spent building it was in the evenings, on my 'own' time... perhaps 10% of it was 'company' time where I had free time and spent it building this tool.
and
> I did this on my PC though and haven't used it at work yet (but will need to soon so that's why I'm asking)
If you did this on your own PC and it hasn't touched any of their hardware (compute or network), you are probably good to go. You should create an LLC and set it up as a SaaS and then ask your bosses if you can purchase a license to use at work. And then ensure that you never work on it on their hardware or network. If any of it was built on their hardware or network... don't pursue at all.
All companies that have the "anything invented here is ours" policy also have a "prior art" form that you can fill out and say, this was mine before I arrived. You will need to let them know that you forgot to fill that out because you didn't think your prior work was going to be needed, but now that you see that it is needed, you need to fill out the form.
But before going doing anything, as everyone else has said, talk to a lawyer.
Quit, wait a year then do it.
Why are you asking Reddit if you aren't sure about the terms of your employment? Read your company's employee handbook. If it doesn't discuss this, ask your legal / compliance team for the rules around it. You're going to spend a boat load in legal fees talking to a lawyer if you can't be bothered to familiarize yourself with your company's policies.
Starting off with a lawyer like a bunch of people are suggesting is just going to set you up to rack up legal fees and it'll ensure that your company won't trust you. Management and legal teams do not like surprises. Discuss this openly with your company's legal / compliance team, and then hire a lawyer if you need it.
You're going to run into two possible issues:
-
Like you mentioned, anything built on company time may be property of the company you work for.
-
Even if it's not, and you get the go ahead, you need to know if you are required to self report any outside business doings. If you plan on selling the tool, you'll need to be a small business / sole proprietor. This could need to be reported and approved before doing anything. If this isn't approved, issue 1 is a moot point.
I'm an engineering manager in a highly regulated space. We need to check legal boxes for this type of stuff. That's it. I fully support my reports if this comes up. But my responsibility is to the company first. If the software is not specific to the line of business we are in, isn't an integral component to classified IP, it wouldn't compete with us in any way, and you could sell it while not impacting your ability to work during your scheduled hours, you're good to go.
Best of luck.
Your employer owns it
If you used the work laptop you're fucked. If you used your own computer you might be ok, but you might need your boss's permission.
- Read your contract. The answer is in there.
- There’s too much strategy here to give an answer. You say it’s hobby level. Your employer probably won’t care if you earn $5/mo
- Why would you not hire a lawyer? If you don’t perceive the cost to be worth it, then maybe it’s not such a great tool after all.
Don't bring it up to your employer!
You have already made the mistake of giving the templates from your previous job for free! Don't repeat the same.
Think smart. Have DMed you a probable way. Check.
Does anybody know about the 10% work time? If not, you used 100% free time at home
Doesn't usually matter
Must paperwork I've seen states anything you create is theirs no matter what
It's standard in most jobs but most people don't care, like OP.
Well part would be "can they prove you worked on it during paid working hours?"
If it is all on your own machine, and you don't have like...a git history that includes times durkng work, then they won't have much there.
Fck your employer. Definitely get a lawyer.
If you're in doubt, I'd let your company know and get written confirmation that they allow you to do this on your own time before trying to sell it/use it for your work.
If you just made it and it doesn't directly compete with anything your company is doing, odds are that they won't care. Most companies aren't out to steal your ideas and the general clause about IP is for avoidance of doubt and to deter employees using their knowledge to compete.
If it turns out you're making millions from it and then you ask, they might get petty and claim it, though. With written approval beforehand, you've got your legal precedent in order.
Beware that they may tell you that they'd prefer you not working on a second business simultaneously.
Well your first mistake is saying 90% of the time it was evenings. Talk about opening yourself up for attack.
I’ll manufacture it for you dm me
If you invented it and can patent it, consider it yours. What’s stopping you from hiring a factory in china to mass produce it?
Some awful advice here.
- Read your employment contract. Look for an inventions or IP clause. It will clearly state their expectations if it’s in there.
- You stated this solves a work problem, so it seems likely some work was done on company time - that likely makes it company property.
- Check company policies regarding the subject, mature companies are likely to have a process in place.
- Gather all the documents mentioned above and talk to a lawyer.
I came across this a while back and even asked the question in my MBA course where the professor was a serial entrepreneur 9+ exits, 100m average exit and he brought a legal expert in ventures to talk to the class.
The answer pretty much boils down to:
-
Did you use any specific tools that the company had access to that you otherwise would not have. Think expensive software licenses, expensive equipment etc. (not generic tools like a laptop)
-
It’s incredibly hard for a company to prove that they own your “invention” because you built it on company time. It’s not enough for you to just have worked on it during company time.
Hope this helps
I would just say you 100% made it in your own spare time to avoid legal nonsense.
Although if you have a NDA or non compete you might be fucked without context it's hard to help
Well the first thing you're gonna wanna do is post about it on a public website like Reddit
Sell it anyway. Don’t tell your employer about it.
Haven't you watched silicone valley
- Create a copy of a tool for your company where ypu work that has only essential part.
- Original has more features including some distinct ones which you will market.
In short, try to make them as different as possible, still doing the same thing.