when everyone can freelance and everyone does .... its like needles in haystacks
this post was submitted on 30 Nov 2023
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That's strange... I'm a freelance front-end dev myself, working on Upwork, and I think I'm pretty good (not an ad). So they exist! =)
From the freelancer's perspective, Upwork is one of the best places to find a project. The other places like Guru, Freelancer com and so on are much worse, IMO.
The badges like top rates are not quality signs actually. Almost everyone can earn it, the conditions are pretty easy.
Maybe, you are just not paying enough? What's your proposed/acceptable rate? I am not considering anything lower than $55/hour, just completely filtered it out. And not doing fixed-price projects at all (anymore, had a terrible experience).
The other thing, I think you need to talk with the freelancer before the contract. Give a good, technical-oriented job description and look and his/her responses and questions closely. Not general ones like "I can do this, did this 100500 times", but related to the point. Add good questions to the job post, but not that much, 2 or 3 as max. Otherwise, devs just skip it.
Start small, with a little, clear tasks and look at their results.
In short, treat the hiring process as seriously as good freelancers do. Make a clear, detailed job post. Talk with freelancers before the work, possibly even via call. Don't look at the country and badges that much. Their proposals, communication, and previous related projects are much more important. Good luck!
This is an insightful response and I appreciate it.
It’s interesting that you say you don’t do fixed price contracts because that probably accounts for a lot of the issue.
I only hire for fixed price contracts because it’s the only way to protect against developers failing and still charging me.
That is to say, the quality (of even the “top” freelancers on Upwork) is so poor that most of them fail simple jobs and take many hours to complete simple jobs.
If I hire someone to create one static page from a Figma file, and it takes them 18 hours because they’re incompetent, it doesn’t make sense to monetarily reward them for their slow work.
However, I understand how it could work in a different direction from your perspective. A client could keep requesting more things (even beyond the scope) and never mark the job completed.
I have no problem paying a developer I actually trust and who’s moderately competent per hour. I can’t pay the idiots I keep encountering on Upwork per hour. Therein lies the issue I think lol.
I do WordPress theming (freelance, and at an agency). I don’t give fixed prices for projects, but I do give an estimate based on how long I think it’ll take. If the scope is massively different, I chat to the client about it and we come to some sort of agreement. If I overshot it, I will usually discount my final invoice, especially if it’s a regular client.
Also, all the low quality developer who were let go went to upwork and Fiverr, pushing prices down which then the high quality ppl can’t maintain leaving only the low quality ppl.
I'm sorry to hear about your negative experiences, and I don't believe you're alone in feeling this way. The best way to find a reliable developer isn't necessarily through a marketplace, but instead through networking, word of mouth, or contractor agencies. It may be harder and take more time initially, but you'll reduce the risk of encountering incompetent individuals. Agencies usually have stricter quality control and a reputation to uphold, so that could ensure a higher level of quality.
Alternatively, you can turn to project-based platforms like Toptal, which is known for its stringent acceptance process. GitHub also has a job board, as do many other niche tech websites. These are typically frequented by very skilled devs. Remember to clearly list your project requirements and expectations right from the start, and ensure they're capable of meeting them before hiring.
Lastly, consider that the demand for developers has skyrocketed in recent years, so the really skilled ones are usually in high demand and booked out. It might be worth building relationships with a few reliable developers so that they'll be more inclined to work on small projects when they come up.
I’m a dev and freelanced on UpWork a couple of years ago full time. I had a pretty easy time getting good clients and was 100% rated.
I recently went back to pick up some small contracts. I’m working full time on my company and I could use the cash.
It’s been awful. Clients are low balling left and right, the whole platform is oversaturated, a total mess. I think it’s getting harder both for serious clients and serious freelancers to find each other through the influx of garbage.
This is my experience, the low balling in particular has been pretty awful
Yes lol. I dunno how Americans can handle Dev work for 50$/HR. That's less than what we charge in east Europe
FWIW I would never, ever, consider a job for less than 120/hr. I work with people who get paid around my level, and some of them I consider to be ... not very great. Meaning, even a shit developer is making 10G a month right now working from home and taking a few naps a day.
From what I can see as well, remote is the new norm in dev. In my company (I work with a consulting group), they have staffed up with like 50% remote talent -- integrated into the team. So I'm sure those folks are making like ... lets say even 50/hr. They are not amazing good as well.
So, if someone is slinging front pages on upwork right now ... I mean. They will be reaaaal bad. Since remote is now the norm, and you cant steal a persons job that is making 200K a year, by low balling 50K a year lets say, then you are not even 1/4 as good as them.
So those people go work on upwork I guess?
,
As someone who has done freelance, pay rates on places like Upwork have gotten so bad that everyone I know has abandoned platforms to go back to other forms of seeking jobs. Upwork self selects for rushed, low quality work and egregiously low pay.
Any entrepreneur will get into trouble sometimes, all you need to do is never give up
There are still seasoned Programmers only that they have started leaving those freelance platforms and building a niche for themselves, owning personalized web-sites of their own.
The entrance window to access freelancers are changing, upgrading to a new phase, you just have to change your search platform from "what platform can provide me with a good and qualified freelancer to how can i find a better freelance outside of freelance platforms ?", it will sound absurd in the ears of my readers but it has started already.
That's a great idea honestly. I haven't really just searched for talented devs who are self-branding with websites and will consider doing so this week.
Thanks!
I'm a freelancer but I'm not on Upwork. IMO the nature of your job may be a problem. From a top-rated devs perspective, a recurring long-term job would take precedence over a one-off issue for a new client. If you're advertising your jobs as one-offs where the freelancer could net a few 100 dollars at max, your work is not high-priority for the dev. Maybe try reframing your job post as a long-term job with a fixed weekly payment plus a variable amount of pay depending on the workload. Something like a retainer?
Also, the regional filter seems stupid to me. Freelancers working from places like Eastern Europe and SE Asia are great. I'll admit that there's a lot more low-quality devs in SE Asia, but it's pretty easy to filter them out. If there's one thing you can learn from your experience, it's that you'll have to filter out people regardless of their location.
Yeah that's a good idea. Most of the jobs are one-off but I'm looking for a consistent contractor to work with as we have ongoing dev work, it's just sporadic.
The best dev I ever worked with was in the UK and we worked together for around a year on a freelance/contract basis but then he got hired to a top firm for a full-time gig.
I still use Upwork. Still awesome
Hey mate. I'm building a marketplace with developers in a way that weeds out potential bad hires. Would you be interested to check it?
I THOUGHT UpWork was ‘weeding out bad hires’? They allude to that anyway. It’s misleading.
I’d stick to in-house
It doesn't make sense for me to hire a full-time dev because we don't have dev work every day.
Hi there,
My name's Paul, I'm from the Netherlands. This year I sold my share in a software company I co-founded six years ago. Currently I'm co-founding another start up and working on and looking for some part-time or short-term front-end design and development projects. I have over 10 years of experience as a UI/UX designer and developer and worked with many sorts of frameworks.
I'm happy to engage in a conversation to find out if we're a match.
Regards,
Paul
The problem is platforms like Upwork get saturated, and the ability for a quality Dev to stand out is low (many times clients undervalue the work or the work is too small to be worth it).
There are typically 2 types of Devs - the ones who just want to work on challenging Dev work and get paid well, and those who want to run a business. Many of the best Devs imo don't want to run a business and don't want the hassle of finding a few days work here and there constantly. Upwork requires effort to market and organise work. The Devs who want a few days here and there are never the highest quality developer. The best freelancers want long term contracts on actual challenging work.
I work at a boutique high end Dev consulting company in Australia, and happy to chat further if you'd like
10 years ago, Upwork was amazing for finding quality talented devs, now it’s just over saturated and all the good talent has gone elsewhere. Honestly we just use toptal.com or lunem.com
I have the opposite problem. And may be able to help you.
I was a senior developer at a UK startup. The MVP I built helped them raise £9M in series A. I've also launched multiple products myself, including a Shopify app.
Right now I am trying to launch an AI startup. I want to do it without raising VC so would like to have some gigs on the side. I tried UpWork but don't have time to build up a profile, nor compete against the rest of the world.
When I look for developer jobs here, they are always long contracts or permanent. I don't want that; I need flexibility.
I had thought about specialising in Shopify. I think it's well thought-out as a platform, and though I prefer to get involved in more complex stuff, I wouldn't mind doing small tasks like building pages, creating integrations etc
My rate is £500 / day. Happy to bill by the hour. Feel free to PM me.