this post was submitted on 02 Dec 2023
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Bill Gates feels Generative AI has plateaued, says GPT-5 will not be any better::The billionaire philanthropist in an interview with German newspaper Handelsblatt, shared his thoughts on Artificial general intelligence, climate change, and the scope of AI in the future.

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[–] ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world 36 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I’m not sure I’d say it’s plateaued today but I definitely think machine learning is going to hit a wall soon. Some tech keeps improving until physical limits stop progress but I see generative AI as being more like self-driving cars where the “easy” parts end up solved but the last 10% is insanely hard.

There’s also the economic reality of scaling. Maybe the “hard” problems could, in theory, be easily solved with enough compute power. We’ll eventually solve those problems but it’s going to be on Nvidia’s timeline, not OpenAI’s.

[–] nossaquesapao@lemmy.eco.br 22 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Generative ai is a bit different from self driving cars in the sense that they're tolerant to failures. This may give more room for improvements when compared to other applications.

[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 33 points 11 months ago

Let me save you a click: he doesn’t say anything interesting about why he thinks this.

[–] onlinepersona@programming.dev 30 points 11 months ago (1 children)

What does Bill Gates know about GenAI? Is he an expert on the subject?

[–] ohlaph@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

He's not. He might pay experts, but he isn't one.

[–] astronaut_sloth@mander.xyz 22 points 11 months ago (4 children)

Cool, Bill Gates has opinions. I think he's being hasty and speaking out of turn and only partially correct. From my understanding, the "big innovation" of GPT-4 was adding more parameters and scaling up compute. The core algorithms are generally agreed to be mostly the same from earlier versions (not that we know for sure since OpenAI has only released a technical report). Based on that, the real limit on this technology is compute and number of parameters (as boring as that is), and so he's right that the algorithm design may have plateaued. However, we really don't know what will happen if truly monster rigs with tens-of-trillions of parameters are used when trained on the entirety of human written knowledge (morality of that notwithstanding), and that's where he's wrong.

[–] Vlyn@lemmy.zip 66 points 11 months ago (4 children)

You got it the wrong way around. We already have a ton of compute and what this kind of AI can do is pretty cool.

But adding more compute power and parameters won't solve the inherent problems.

No matter what you do, it's still just a text generator guessing the next best word. It doesn't do real math or logic, it gets basic things wrong and hallucinates new fake facts.

Sure, it will get slightly better still, but not much. You can throw a million times the power at it and it will still fuck up in just the same ways.

[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (8 children)

it's still just a text generator guessing the next best word. It doesn't do real math or logic, it gets basic things wrong and hallucinates new fake facts.

If humans are any kind of yardstick here, I’d say all this is true of us too on many levels. The brain is a shortcut engine, not a brute force computer. It’s not solving equations to help you predict where that tennis ball will bounce next. It’s making guesses based on its corpus of past experience. Good enough guesses are frankly our brains’ bread and butter and most of us get through most days on little more than this.

It’s true that we can do more. Some of us, anyway. How many people actually exercise math and logic though? Sometimes it seems like… not a lot. And how many people hallucinate fake facts? A lot.

It’s much like evaluating self-driving cars. We may be tempted to say they’re just bloody awful, but so are human drivers.

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[–] archomrade@midwest.social 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

This is short-sighted.

The jump to GPT 3.5 was preceded by the same general misunderstanding (we've reached the limit of what generative pre-trained transformers can do, we've reached diminishing returns, ECT.) and then a relatively small change (AFAIK it was a couple additional layers of transforms and a refinement of the training protocol) and suddenly it was displaying behaviors none of the experts expected.

Small changes will compound when factored over billions of nodes, that's just how it goes. It's just that nobody knows which changes will have that scale of impact, and what emergent qualities happen as a result.

It's ok to say "we don't know why this works" and also "there's no reason to expect anything more from this methodology". But I wouldn't dismiss further improvements as a forgone possibility.

[–] grabyourmotherskeys@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Another way to think of this is feedback from humans will refine results. If enough people tell it that Toronto is not the capital of Canada it will start biasing toward Ottawa, for example. I have a feeling this is behind the search engine roll out.

[–] raptir@lemdro.id 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

ChatGPT doesn't learn like that though, does it? I thought it was "static" with its training data.

[–] HiggsBroson@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

You can finetune LLMs using smaller datasets, or with RLHF (reinforcement learning from human feedback) wherein people can give ratings to responses and the model can be either "rewarded" or "penalized" based off of the ratings for a given output. This retrains the LLM to produce outputs that people prefer.

[–] niisyth@lemmy.ca 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Active Learning Models. Though public exposure can eaily fuck it up, without adult supervision. With proper supervision though, there's promise.

[–] BearOfaTime@lemm.ee 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

So it will always have the biases of the supervisors

[–] niisyth@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 months ago

Bias is inevitable. Whether it is AI or any other knowledge based system. We just have to be cognizant of it and try to remedy it.

[–] grabyourmotherskeys@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

I was speculating about how you can overcome hallucinations, etc., by supplying additional training data. Not specific to ChatGPT or even LLMs...

[–] Toes@ani.social 3 points 11 months ago

Toronto is Canadian New York. It wants to be the capital and probably should be but it doesn't speak enough French.

[–] generalpotato@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

This is exactly it. And it’s funny you’re getting downvoted.

We don’t truly know the depth of ML yet and how these general models could potential change when a few vectors in the equation change, and that’s the big unknown with it. I agree with you here that Gates’ opinion is just that and isn’t particularly well informed. Especially in comparison to what some of the industry and ML experts are saying about how far we can go with the models, how they will evolve as we change parameters/vectors/dependencies and the impact of that evolution on potential applications. It’s just too early.

[–] archomrade@midwest.social 4 points 11 months ago

I kinda get why I'm getting downvoted, honestly. The ChatGPT fanboys definitely give off an "NFT-grindset" kind of vibe, and they can be loud and overzealous with their prognosticating. It feels cathartic to make fun of the thing they've adopted as a centerpiece of their personality

None of that changes what is objectively the very real and very unexpected improvement these models are displaying, and we're still not sure what it is they're doing behind the curtain. "Predicting the next most likely word" is simply not a sufficient explanation for how these models seem to correctly interpret intent and apply factual knowledge stored in its dataset in abstract ways.

People want to squabble over anthropomorphic word choices and debate 'consiousness', and fair enough, its an interesting question. But that doesn't really come close to what's really interesting about the models gaining functionality when by all accounts they should only be 'guessing the next most likely word'.

I'm not really interested in debating people who are performatively unimpressed by these products, but it bothers me that those people continue rolling their eyes when significant advancements are made. Like sure, it's not new that ML algorithms can decode keystrokes from an audio recording, but it's a big deal when those models can be run on consumer grade hardware and not just a super computer run by a three letter agency.

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[–] OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Yeah and I think he may be scaling to like true AGI. Very possible LLMs just don't become AGI, you need some extra juice we haven't come up with yet, in addition to computational power no one can afford yet.

[–] astronaut_sloth@mander.xyz 13 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Except that scaling alone won't lead to AGI. It may generate better, more convincing text, but the core algorithm is the same. That "special juice" is almost certainly going to come from algorithmic development rather than just throwing more compute at the problem.

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[–] 0ops@lemm.ee 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

My hypothesis is that that "extra juice" is going to be some kind of body. More senses than text-input, and more ways to manipulate itself and the environment than text-output. Basically, right now llm's can kind of understand things in terms of text descriptions, but will never be able to understand it the way a human can until it has all of the senses (and arguably physical capabilities) that a human does. Thought experiment: Presumably you "understand" your dog - can you describe your dog without sensory details, directly or indirectly? Behavior had to be observed somehow. Time is a sense too. EDIT: before someone says it, as for feelings I'm not really sure, I'm not a biology guy. But my guess is we sense our own hormones as well

[–] LinuxSBC@lemm.ee 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

First, they do have senses. For example, many LLMs can "see" images. Second, they're actually pretty good at describing things. What they're really bad at is analysis and logic, which is not related to senses at all.

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[–] lorkano@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

The problem is that between gpt 3 and 4 there is massive increase in number of parameters, but not massive increase in its abilities

[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

I’ll listen to his opinions more than some, but unfortunately this article doesn’t say anything interesting about why he has this opinion. I guess the author supposes we will simply regard him as an oracle on name recognition alone.

[–] SociallyAwkwardLinux@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago

"GPT-4 should be enough for anyone." -Bill Gates

[–] Pxtl@lemmy.ca 9 points 11 months ago

I hope so. Theyve already got scary implications for creative parts of the economy.

That said, we're in the Cambrian explosion of the tech. As it plateaus, the next step will be enhanced tooling and convenience around it. Better inputs than just text, better, more applications in new spaces, etc.

[–] yournamehere@lemm.ee 8 points 11 months ago (1 children)

bill is a wanker. dont be like bill.

[–] random_character_a@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

Now now. He only hired assholes and monsters to execute immoral MS mob style tactics, while he played the great innocent altruist.

[–] Mio@feddit.nu 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

But we have more areas to apply this to. I still can't ask my PC to do some work, like Unistall OneDrive or change a setting in the OS. Send a message on Teams. Where is Jarvis?

[–] Toribor@corndog.social 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Having Generative AI make API calls on your behalf is a work in progress across pretty much every industry. It'll make complex tasks across multiple services a lot easier but it's definitely going to cause weird unpredictable behavior too.

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[–] oldfart@lemm.ee 6 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Not a single comment yet stating how Gates is a great human being because of his foundation, and how all you haters should fuck the fuck off? sigh, let me the first one.

[–] oldfart@lemm.ee 14 points 11 months ago

Just to make things extremely clear, the above comment has been sarcastic. He's an awful person.

[–] GeneralEmergency@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

They're upset he insulted their AI girlfriends.

[–] banneryear1868@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

You mean his tax haven?

I mean they've done some good things, but the capitalist system that gave him his wealth is the same one that causes poverty and his foundation isn't working to change that.

[–] IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

Bill Gates views on AI are about as insightful as Gordon Ramsey’s on orbital mechanics.

[–] DontRedditMyLemmy@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

I've been saying this for years!

[–] r00ty@kbin.life 3 points 11 months ago

On the one hand, I don't really know enough about AI to comment. What I do remember is that, Bill Gates said the Internet was just a fad in the 90s. This comment caused myself and others problems promoting the Internet in workplaces because those in charge for some reason put some weight to his words. :p

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