Crazed strongman Netanyahu wants to kill all of the Palestinians, while the US wants him to kill less than that.
this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
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I think this is pretty close to the truth. However, Netanyahu is pragmatic and knows he can't actually kill them all. Rather, his goal is to make conditions in Gaza so unliveable that the Palestinians will have to leave.
What will the US do? It will keep pushing the 2-state solution. Since neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are ready for that yet, it effectively means that the killing will continue until the Gazan Palestinians leave or are so beaten down that they'll agree to almost anything, or until average Israelis cool down and push the conservative coalition government out of power. Getting to those conditions will still take months.
I don't think that most of the rest of the world gives a shit. Sure, some people will protest Israel's actions, but all the big countries, East and West, have more pressing problems. Putin is already at war with Ukraine. Xi frets about Taiwan and the South China Sea, slowing economic growth, and is busy with another round of internal purges. Europe is far more worried about Ukraine than Gaza. They have to spend billions ramping up their militaries again, and Germany's economic engine is sputtering. The US is too embroiled in its own domestic political problems. The US is also, rightly, much more concerned about the serious geostrategic competition coming from China. Even the surrounding Arab countries don't care all that much. They aren't going to go to war against Israel again, that's for sure.
The hard truth is that Gaza just doesn't matter that much geo-strategically.
Yup. The hard right in Israel opposes a two state solution.
If Netanyahu wants to fuck around he can damn well find out when America cuts off the funding faucet.
Man. I wish that were the case. But I feel like America is too deep in bed with Israel to stop now. A man can dream though, a man can dream.
This is going to take time. What to do with Gaza and Palestinians is going to take a lot of commitment. The US wants to unite the West bank with Gaza, and the current power level is opposed.
That would be hard, considering the west bank exist exclusively on paper. In reality, Palestinians only have a couple dozen of hamlets surrounded and guarded by Israelis who subject them to an apartheid. The rest of the west bank is Israeli settlements.
Both should fuck off and restore Palestine. There would be no "terrorists", if the people were allowed to live in the first place. Are you blind or dishonest?
Israel gets its way, US sends as much aid as Israel wants.
The ideology of Hamas has deep support in Gaza; no matter how thoroughly the organization is destroyed now, it will be rebuilt unless it is kept actively suppressed. I don't see how that's possible without an occupation, and I suspect American leadership would privately agree, given the experience of the USA in Iraq and Afghanistan. (How much of what the USA publicly announces is the same as what it says to Israel in private?)
An occupation would be expensive, bloody, and globally unpopular - it can't last forever and the only way I see of ending it eventually without a return to the pre-war status quo is to find some organization that is capable of both coexisting with Israel and ruling Gaza. If that's not the Palestinian Authority, what is it? The Israelis opposed to a two-state solution haven't offered a realistic alternative.
experience of the USA in Iraq and Afghanistan.
you mean where we tried to- and failed- to keep Iraq and Afghanistan ~~oppressed~~"suppressed"? Our experience says... it ain't gonna happen.
The hard-right Israelis have already offered their solution. it's called "Nakba" - the translation? Genocide.
The problem is that you can't just roll in an army, shoot anything that pokes its head out, and call it a day. Without extensive efforts to build infrastructure and create jobs to give people a sense of normalcy and belief that their lives are improving, you'll just build up resentment. That's what the US did for Germany and Japan post-WWII, and any other such endeavors will require at least that same amount of ongoing commitment. Admittedly, German and Japanese rehabilitation was also greatly helped by the fact that the USSR existed as a convenient external enemy to point at, and I don't think there's anything nearly as convenient in the Middle East, given that for most Israel would be said external enemy.
Without extensive efforts to build infrastructure and create jobs to give people a sense of normalcy and belief that their lives are improving, you’ll just build up resentment.
exactly. the Zionists are unwilling to give them that normalcy... or representation or basic rights, even. Hamas needs the Zionists, and the Zionists need Hamas, because their goals are to annihilate the other; any moderates that get traction towards peace of any sort compromise their goals.
There was actually a jobs programs allowing Gazans to work in Israel. Some of the Gazans then participated in the October 7th attacks and murdered civilians in the very villages they were working in.
…and? What’s the point here?
Many in that program were starting their day at 3 am just to get through the checkpoint, because the number let out was largely controlled. There shouldn’t have to be a jobs program, and there wouldn’t be such a program if they weren’t oppressing the palistinians in the first place.
Dude the slaves in the US had jobs (unpaid of course) and were working when they revolted. They totally should have been grateful and tried some civil disobedience instead. /S
We need some proof for that statement.
Iraq actually showed us a way to solve it without suppression. We brought the local militias into the fold.
The ideology of Hamas has deep support in Gaza; no matter how thoroughly the organization is destroyed now, it will be rebuilt unless it is kept actively suppressed.
I think this is a mistake. Hamas's popularity doesn't come from the fact that their ideas are wildly popular, but because Fatah was exposed as horrendously corrupt in the late 90s and early 2000s. Hamas's radical ideology is not a core part of Palestinian identity - it is simply a result of circumstances that were in no small part urged on by Israeli manipulation.
Their popularity also comes from how peace is just not working. Which is why even if it's destroyed, another armed resistance organization will spring up. Hamas is the only logical answer to a situation where peace 100% won't work, while violence only 90% won't work.
And let’s no forget that Israel was the one who started and funded Hamas. Eventually the citizens of Gaza then elected Hamas as their governing body. All that to say, a single state is the best we can hope for. Israel is repulsed by that but after this shit show it’s the only thing that makes any sense.
Hamas was voted in 20 years ago, and ran as moderates.
They now rule Gaza through violence and fear.
They exist because Israel helped found them, but they still exist because Israel is still propping them up.
Yeah, you said it better than I did. Thank you.
AFAIK Hamas's election platform was that peace clearly wasn't working.
Their election platform was that Fatah was an Israeli puppet and they wanted to move towards a two state solution and stopping the settlers.
The action was to give up moderation because the entire world supported the Israeli blockade and treating Hamas as a terrorist organization.
Hamas was voted in 20 years ago
Hamas was elected in 2006 so almost 18 years ago.
and ran as moderates
Please provide verifiable support for this statement.
About a thousand news reports from 2006. We're not going down this rabbit hole where you demand sources for well known stuff.
So nothing then.
Cool.
What a moronic comment.
"I demand sources that are easily goggleable and will declare victory if you don't do the search for me!" -- girlfreddy
Open a fucking history book. This isn't hard.
