Are we ignoring the PC as a platform?
this post was submitted on 14 Aug 2023
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Is the PC a console? No. So it can be 'console exclusive' on PS5.
No. If it were a PS5 exclusive it wouldn't be released on the PC.
Topic title is "PS5 console exclusive" emphasis on "console". On consoles, it will be a PS5 exclusive for an indeterminate length of time.
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But there are certain titles that are only on PS5 and not PC?
Of course yeah. But more often than not PC isn't factored in when something is called exclusive or not because honestly PC and Consoles aren't in competition in the same way consoles are with each other.
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And kind of a console too lol with the steam deck
Don't want to sound arrogant, but most people here (including OP and the writers of the article) don't seam to know much about video game development.
Because statements like "... Isn't about graphics or frame rate; it's memory" don't make sense at all.
Because if you fast memory is to small you would either more often read from a slower memory which results in less frame rate or you would need to make the stuff that fill up your memory (most often textures) smaller (lower resolution) which "reduces graphics"
The article says something more business politics related: "Microsoft requires all games to run, feature-complete and without changes in quality or mechanics" on both Versions S and X. I'm not really believe this to be true because this would make the existence of more powerful X version completely pointless. However what I think can be the case is that Microsoft QA is forcing the studio to adapt the game for the series S before it could be published. This needs time. Since there is no low spec version for the PS5 there is no need for additional adaptations.
Microsoft is OK with the S having a lower resolution and frame rate, that's why it exists.
They aren't OK with the X having a feature that the S does not, and that's what's blocking Baldur's Gate 3. Split screen is possible on the X, it's not (currently) possible on the S, that's what they're working on.
Removing split screen from both isn't an option because the PS5 version supports it. The Xbox version would get murdered if they do it.
The reason why split screen doesn't work on the S is, yes, due to the available memory. At it's best, it has 8GB that runs 1/2 the speed of the X, + another 2GB that are so slow as to be essentially useless for gaming.
What could split screen bring that it will not work with the S memory? Because one object will not take up twice the space just because split screen. The texture of it will (hopefully) only loaded once for both screens.
What can change is the total amount of objects that are loaded into memory since the players can now be simultaneously on two different places.
So as a Developer you will need to find a way to get around this. Maybe by reducing the textures of the objects even more, so that you can load more of them in the same space. Or maybe by remove non essential object from the scene at all so that by default less object needed to be loaded. Also the screen is now half the size so maybe limit the field of view more to start loading in objects a little later.
What ever they decide to do, this will require additional steps that are only needed because MS want's the game to be optimised for the series S.
From a Developer perspective I could understand if they maybe decide to ditch the Xbox release completely because of this additional workload needed.
Plus: if removing background objects from the scene in order to save memory is something that needs to be consistent on both S and X version because of MS policy, you will get "less graphics" on the X then what would be possible, just because the S exist... What completely undermines the complete existence of the X.
And of course non of this is just because split screen. This will most likely be true for every game on Xbox. It's just that for most games it's enough to cut resolution down for the S and leave the rest as it is.
That's not the way split screen works.
Each view of the world requires that the entire visible world be loaded twice, so that it can be seen from each players perspective independent of the other.
If we go into a dungeon, I go left and you go right, it has to render both pathways simultaneously. In a single player or single screen two player game, it only has one path to consider.
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BG3's PC minimum specs list 4gb vram and 8gb normal ram. Assuming windows uses 3 gb, that's 9gbs of total memory that the game needs. They could just use lower res textures when in splitscreen and be done with it, but I guess they want to compromise as little as possible
Edit: apparently Microsoft wants games to use less than 6 just in case someone tries to activate all background functions at once. That is indeed quite stupid.
That's still more RAM than the S has available once you take system overhead into account.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/xbox-series-s-suffers-from-vram-limitations-just-like-8gb-gpus
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Because statements like “… Isn’t about graphics or frame rate; it’s memory” don’t make sense at all.
I get what you're saying but it does make sense actually. The Series S has incredibly under-powered memory which has hobbled a lot of developers thus far. It's the core reason why they can't get split-screen working right yet. Framerate/graphics are more associated with GPU performance, which is not as big of an issue for the S. Everything bottlenecks on the very small, very weak memory they provided.
Nah, the specific issue they're having is definitely a memory issue. Split-screen doesn't really require that much more processing power, but it does need more memory, and preferably faster memory, to buffer everything.
Wait, there's a split screen on Baldur's Gate III? Normally I'd expect split screen games are for games with shorter gameplay loop, e.g. FPS, racing.
It's kinda interesting that there's a split screen couch co-op for a long sprawling RPG. Also doesn't that make all the UIs and texts even more busy / cramped?
I just read that some people are trying out split screen. on steam deck, that's wild.
Larian already did excellent split screen in D:OS2 (Maybe also in other games, no idea). The controller UI is very different from the M+K one and split screen is only available with controller input.
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Okay so after seeing the bot TLDR and the other comments, I actually went and read the article. It's a bit wishy washy as to why and mentions RAM could be the issue for S consoles.
When I read the headline I thought it meant it was also not viable for PCs either, which doesn't seem to be the case at all. Most PCs have at least 16GB ram these days.
Why are people upset at all? I don't get it. I actually think this is good, it will either force Microsoft to change their policy with consoles and/or release a line that can compete with PS. Or else. Meanwhile PC is still an option.
When I read the headline I thought it meant it was also not viable for PCs either, which doesn't seem to be the case at all. Most PCs have at least 16GB ram these days.
Also keep in mind that PC doesn't have unified memory. So there's usually at least 8GB of VRAM in addition to whatever amount of main memory you have.
I don't think anyone is upset? Xbox players are of course disappointed because they want the game but Larian have been totally fair and upfront about everything.
Microsoft should really re-evaluate their policies here though I agree. I feel like split screen could be an exception to the rule specifically.
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🤖 I'm a bot that provides automatic summaries for articles:
Click here to see the summary
Baldur’s Gate III is a highly anticipated role-playing game set in the Dungeons & Dragons universe, offering familiar classes and abilities in an expansive high-fantasy world.
Though Microsoft’s parity requirements have been in place since the Xbox Series consoles came to market in November 2020, Baldur’s Gate III is the ecosystem’s highest-profile loss directly attributable to these restrictions.
There weren’t a ton of concrete examples to prove this theory, and the Digital Foundry team argued against the idea, citing the existing variance in the PC market and saying that lower targets could actually help games run even better on higher-powered consoles.
“MANY developers have been sitting in meetings for the past year desperately trying to get Series S launch requirements dropped,” Bossa Studios VFX artist Ian Maclure tweeted at the time.
Rocksteady senior character technical artist Lee Devonald similarly tweeted about his experience building Gotham Knights — a game that shipped on consoles with a framerate locked at 30 fps and no performance mode.
Regardless of whether the Series S is restraining the entire video game industry, Xbox parity requirements are literally holding back Baldur’s Gate III, and this system has accidentally created another console exclusive for the PS5, for now.
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I ran split screen with my wife last night with my 6700XT which I think is probably pretty close performance wise to a series s. It ran great at 1080p. I wonder if the advertised 1440p is the hold up?
Lowering the resolution for split screen on a AAA game seems like a reasonable enough sacrifice for me.
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I’ve been debating which console I might want to get for awhile now and this may have been the final straw pushing me towards the PS5. Haven’t been this excited about this game in a long time and there are several other exclusives that look amazing too.
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I’ve played this game a bit and I really don’t understand why it can’t be scaled down visually to work. It’s not some game that needs to target high fps or something.
I really wish people would read articles before commenting. I went looking for an article like this specifically that talks about the issues involved and folks can’t even be bothered to read beyond the headline. 😞
I guess I’m having trouble wrapping my head around why this game needs such high specs.
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The problem isn't scale, the problem is rendering the game twice for split screen with only 10GB of RAM.
To put this in perspective, the Xbox ONE X has more ram than the Series S. 12 vs. 10.
If you want to solve that problem purely by scaling the graphics, yeah, I bet they could do it in 640x480...
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The GPU of the series S is simply a lot worse, socutting quality by a bit won't cut it. I also suspect that since they always quote the split screen as problem, it might be about the number of textures to be loaded in when the game is kind of running twice, not the quality.
RAM is the big bottle neck here.
Here's the comparison:
PS5: 16 GB/256-bit GDDR6 SDRAM
512 MB DDR4 RAM
Series X: 10 GB/320-bit & 6 GB/192-bit (16 GB total)
Series S: 8 GB/128-bit & 2 GB/32-bit (10 GB total)
But more than that, it's the speeds involved:
PS5 Peak Bandwidth 448 GB/s
Xbox Series X 10 GB 560 GB/s and 6 GB 336 GB/s
Xbox Series S 8 GB 224 GB/s and 2 GB with 56 GB/s
So not just less RAM, but at 1/2 the speed.
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I hope this leads game engine developers to improve their optimization skills. Chances are the technique(s) needed here have been around for decades.
And how would you recommend they optimize a game so they can render it twice in split screen, when the S only has 10 Gb of RAM? Because that’s the issue here.
It's obviously impossible for me to recommend specifics without seeing their code and data. But a lot can be done in 10 GiB with some effort and clever resource management. They might have to make fundamental changes to their engine if they didn't plan for such constraints ahead of time, so maybe it won't happen for this game. But what they learn through this experience could benefit their future work.
We get it, you're a huge xbox fan and you're disappointed it doesn't have a release date. But let's be clear here: this is 100% on Microsoft. Larian has made it clear they aren't happy with the level of quality of the game on the S (believe specifically for split-screen) and they are holding out on a release date until solutions can be found. That is 100% their right, and you better believe if they released with a shitty performing S version there would be tons of articles, tweets, threads, etc moaning and calling them out on it (instead of the universal praise it is currently receiving). If Microsoft really wants the game on their console sooner they have options: They can help Larian get the S version running properly by providing developers/knowledge/tools/etc, or they could allow for games to have exceptions for certain game features on X vs S.
If anything, Larian have gone above and beyond what most other larger AAA companies put out: Cross-play, cross-save, DRM free, and a huge open-world full of enough options and branching paths to put basically every other RPG to shame. It's clear they want to deliver a great game that has everything possible they can put in it to please their customers. And part of that is not putting out a crappy version of the game. If you don't like it, maybe take it up with Microsoft; or wait patiently and see if they can't optimize and get things figured out once they game releases on the other platforms and they can spend more time focusing on the xbox platform.
There's two views I see here from a software engineering perspective: multi-targeting devices with different specs can get really hard, and that modern development consumes resources in excess.
View 1: If you design a device that won't catch up to modern expectations (limited, shared memory being the factor here), don't expect to run all of the games. Some (or most) games will demand a certain level of resources. Microsoft either expected their status to swing their will upon the developers or were willing to help but just flopped on predicting what would be needed over the device lifetime. It's a hard job, balancing developer need and cost. The hardware developers did their best. This comes down to
View 2: It's an old coot viewpoint, but goddamn are modern computer programs are bloated pieces of mess. This is NOT an insult to the game developers, but it is to the OS and the engine developers as a whole. The entire programming industry has assumed that bigger more betterer computer always gonna come in a year or so. So now we have gigabytes of unused HQ textures in game downloads for no reason. Windows OS with Chrome takes gigabytes of RAM to display a webpage. We went from ultra strict data streaming to CPU rates for Crash Bandicoot to an NVME SSD shoveling half a terabyte a second when you want it in the Xbox Series X. This has left those who cannot afford strong PCs (note: most of the third world) and now consoles from playing the latest and greatest games. Developers leave them behind by grasping at the end of Moore's Law. If BattleBit can produce good gameplay with 256 players on a raw potato, AAA game engines should try and appeal to everyone now.
We get it, you’re a huge xbox fan and you’re disappointed it doesn’t have a release date.
No, you really don't.
Please take your misguided rant elsewhere.
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Mate, you're not John Carmack. It would be a ridiculous assumption to think their developers didn't take a serious look into optimisation before deciding to ignore the xbox ecosystem for initial launch.
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What I don't understand is why they don't just release both Xbox versions without split screen and then try to patch it in later. That way they'd satisfy the feature parity requirement (as I understand it) and people could at least play the game. I love that they're still doing split screen despite it seemingly having fallen out of favour these days, but it's hardly an essential feature.
The article says they're not allowed, legally, to do that, and the ball is on Microsoft's yard.
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