Stirring up nationalist sentiments with the idea of an outside threat to make yourself the national champion and having a populace rally behind you with their political support as they huddle under the flag is incredibly powerful in electoral politics, but politics for the public and politics behind closed doors with powerful stakeholders are never the same.

[–] UserMail@piefed.ca 3 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

I like the NDP and Greens, but I can't vote for them unless their parties merge. They get very little votes here.

If after they merge, pick up a bunch of votes, implement stratgic voting, they could decide to split again afterwards if they wish.

[–] rbos@lemmy.ca 3 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago) (2 children)

In my experience the NDP is willing to burn ecological resources for trivial short term gains. They are a worker party, which is fine, but they often treat 'jobs' as a goal in itself, rather than a route to quality of people's lives.

You can make lots of jobs logging old growth and building out fossil fuel infrastructure.

Edit: don't get me wrong, I'll still vote for them over other options, but my heart and wallet are with the Greens.

[–] karlhungus@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

I don't get that sense of NDP from Avi Lewis at all.

[–] rbos@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 hours ago

Avi Lewis is good people, but institutionally i don't see the NDP prioroizing economic and environmental sustainability. If it comes down to closing mills or saving scraps of old growth forest, or bulking up our renewables, I'm not yet convinced he'd make what i consider the right call. Unpopular sacrifices will need to happen to forestall dosaster.

[–] Levi@lemmy.ca 2 points 7 hours ago

Yeah, I really don't want Green and NDP to merge. NDP seem to hate the environment. I'd have nobody left to vote for.

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca 22 points 18 hours ago (6 children)

Carney is a man who somehow, and I will never know how, convinced NDP voters the voting for an ex banker capitalist whose job it was to renovict people and hide the wealth of the 1% from taxation in Canada was the absolute best choice for progressives and left-wing voters to rally behind

[–] karlhungus@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 hours ago

He didn't, Pete and Trump did.

[–] TemplaerDude@sh.itjust.works 3 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Jagmeet went to our strike line and said he’d take Trudeau down if they forced a deal on us. When they forced a deal on us, Jagmeet was silent. That’s why I didn’t vote for the NDP. Hopefully their new leadership actually stands by their word.

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca 2 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

And honestly I respect that. Conservatives have destroyed their parties provincially in federally when they perceived that the party had become corrupt or morally bankrupt. And the NDP has done the same and your statement is an expression of that. The willingness to destroy the political party because of bad behavior is an absolute requirement for good democracy

But the liberal supporters do not have that track record. Even when they punish their party it's mild and temporary and most often they don't. And that creates a problem. How long will others watch that before they decide they should behave the same way then the political parties know they can get away with anything

[–] TemplaerDude@sh.itjust.works 2 points 4 hours ago

You know what killed me is I shook the guys hand and looked in his eyes and I knew he didn’t believe what he had just said. I could tell from the look in his eyes that he said what he said because it was what we wanted to hear. And that hurt because I like Jag and I respect the position the guy was in, unfortunately with the benefit of hindsight we can tell that in the end his decisions tanked the party. I couldn’t vote for the party after that. They needed a change. They got it. I hope it works out.

The liberal party has had the support of the “Always Liberal, forever Liberal, no matter what I’m voting liberal” people who are just as confounding as their conservative counterparts, for entirely different reasons.

[–] GrackleBirb@lemmy.ca 16 points 11 hours ago (2 children)

My support for Carney was to keep PP out. Singh did not give me the confidence that he could do that. I still vote NDP at the provincial level (although my riding has been Conservative forever alas) - the federal NDP hasn’t really inspired much confidence but Marit is killing it at the provincial level in Ontario.

[–] rbos@lemmy.ca 7 points 10 hours ago

We came very close to a PP government. Too close. I don't like Carney much but Poulivre would have been disastrous. I would rank Singh above both, but my riding was heavily Tory.

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca -3 points 6 hours ago

If you genuinely thought a Bloomberg/Brookfield international banker with a history of renovictions and exploitation of slave-like labor whose primary job was to hide the wealth of the 1% was better than Poilievre then I think you need to seriously reconsider your judgments.

The damage being done to the economy currently is going to be generational and the people that will face and feel it the most are going to be the poor and disadvantaged that nDP voters normally care about. With Poilievre you would have gotten some of the same things, such as an oil pipeline, but you would have also gotten a healthy economy that wouldn't been able to pay the needs of the week in the future

Instead an entire generation and probably too are going to grow up with a substandard life quality as a direct result of the liberal rule including Carney's over the last 11 years.

I strongly encourage you to sit back and think about your choices. Watch what happens over the next few years and watch what happens as we attempt to recover for that in the years to follow and watch who suffers.

[–] BassetHound@lemmy.ca 7 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (2 children)

I gave up on the NDP after years of mismanagement. I voted for the party of Jack and was alright with Mulcair. But under Jagmeet the party has been run into the ground.

That year where Jagmeet and the NDP propped up the obviously dead Trudeau government was the final straw. Willfully choosing to support a wildly unpopular prime minister to avoid the election was gross and made a mockery of their name. If you want to be taken seriously as a party and a leader, you have to be in it to win. There could have been an opportunity to become the opposition again and maybe replace the Liberals in time. Instead they chose to sacrifice their own party. If they don’t even want to be a serious party, why the hell should I vote for them?

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca 0 points 6 hours ago

Well obviously a fair number of NDP voters kind of felt the same. And this is kind of a point that I was bringing up, historically both provincially and federally we have seen conservative supporters utterly destroy their party when their signs of corruption or egregious Behavior. And likewise you can say the same thing about the NDP including the recent destruction of the party.

For some reason you can't say that about liberals. No matter how bad the liberals get they still tend to survive and their voters are reluctant to punish them the same way

[–] kbal@fedia.io 2 points 10 hours ago

Why vote NDP? Because even if we concede that all your criticisms of the party are exactly right and unchanged under its new leadership, that still makes them the best of the main parties available to vote for.

[–] cecilkorik@piefed.ca 8 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Singh unfortunately didn't help the cause much. But I think it was actually Pollievre who helped Carney with such incredible efficiency. I agree, it makes no sense, but PP's innate reality distortion field was apparently large enough to cause some sort of gravitational lensing around Carney too that made him temporarily look like an anti-Trump.

I also think Carney did particularly well on the military topic, especially compared to previous Liberal positions, which might have genuinely appealed to some NDP voters disillusioned with the NDP's traditionally weak stance on defense, in light of the active military threats against us and our allies.

Personally, I understand where the NDP's defense policy is coming from, and I think it's responsible and probably even the right way to approach it holistically. We don't need to beg Europe to partner with us, even if they're obviously willing to, we have everything we need to develop our own military and industry on our own, but it will take time for those investments to pay off, and I get the desire to shortcut some of that with European assistance. But maybe people thought we wouldn't be able to have socialism and kick Trump and Putin's teeth in at the same time. I don't know.

[–] Foxer@lemmy.ca 1 points 6 hours ago

Well it's worth noting that poilievre got almost the same popular vote as carney did. And there's no doubt the Carney had his own trudeomanium moments there in the campaign where people flock to him because they believed in him not because they didn't believe in Poilievre. In fact based on the polling poilievre was gaining ground through most of the election.

None of the polling I saw indicated that defense was a major issue. And it wasn't really brought up a lot during the election, that was more post-election. So while anything is possible I'm not seeing a lot of evidence for that being a major driving force

I don't know that the new NDP is going to be pushing terribly hard for military spending.

[–] ZombieCyborgFromOuterSpace@piefed.ca 4 points 17 hours ago

💯

[–] sbv@sh.itjust.works 11 points 19 hours ago

Did anyone expect anything different? He's a child of the 70s and 80s who became a banker and high ranking technocrat. Neoliberalism is his jam.