Yeah, but your compiler wasn't made with massive copyright infringement, stealing much needed water and rampant corruption, was it?
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I guess Linus doesn't care about the environment or any of the other issues surrounding A.I. I'm not anti-AI just for the sake of being anti-AI. I have a huge problem with AI bcz of it's environmental impacts, intellectual property violations, job impacts, attempts to replace all employees with AI, the general dumbing down of society and worse off the internet is bcz of AI, the surveillance state being built around it. I could go on, but you get the point. I am a staunch, no AI person bcz of all those reasons and a hundred more.
This isn't an age thing, or a, I am getting older and Im stubborn thing. AI is literally ruining the planet and everything on it, and this guy thinks we should just accept that.
I say fuck off with that noise, I don't have e to accept anything.
as a pro-AI, anti-cloud nerd? All of these problems disappear when we address the real problem of Capitalism.
there are abandoned tech certs for building datacenters that produce 110% of their own electricity. these are distinct from the data mines these useless nerds want to build.
without capital, the surveillance state dies.
intellectual property is a capitalist myth invented to hold us back and induce rents, and I'm tired of pretending otherwise.
oh no, you fired me from a job I'd rather not have to do and I still get to survive because we slew capitalism? ahhh, how will I cope with the blow to my identity?
It's perfectly ok to use a new tool to do your work faster, more efficiently, and with greater precision if these improvements are justified by the cost of the tool. But if that tool is a coal-fired, water hoarding, ophan crushing, billionaire-owned kleptobot, your results need to be better than pure gold to be worth the true cost of using it.
It's that "greater precision" part that is hard to ensure.
If someone is checking their work with AI or thoroughly checking the work after, great.
But it's a hard difference to teach
His line seems to be 'don't submit shit code.'
Even if you wrote it by seance with a Oujii board, just make sure it works, and that great grandma Ada agrees to a GPL license.
The comparison between AI and compilers is kind of stupid though. When you program in a given language, you're writing out the entire logic and behavior of your program. Not to mention that the compiler is a deterministic machine, it will always behave in a certain manner and produce predictable results. On the other hand, using AI, you just write a sentence. Then it "creates" a whole bunch of code that will not always be the same, even if you always use the same model and prompt. Not to mention all of the detrimental effects AI has, cognitively speaking, when you start to rely on it. On top of this, all AI models were trained on unfathomable amounts of stolen information.
His line seems to be ‘don’t submit shit code.’
And he's been 100% consistent with that since the start.
Conversations on this subject will continue to stagnate and miss the important points as long as people continue to act like the discussion of ethics is the same as the discussion of efficacy. People who disagree with AI on a principle of its impacts being negative will often call it “a lying machine which is regularly wrong and offers no utility”.
May I suggest that people with criticisms of the ethics and impact of AI take a charitable position towards the utility offered by AI. Accept something along the lines of a positive account given by an experienced software engineer - it’s useful, it presents risks but also it presents new ways to get certain work done well in much less time etc.
Even if you do not believe this, the point is it is a much more ambiguous argument than the ethical argument or the concerns over the impact of AI on the species, environment or society. You weaken those arguments by putting them along side poorly justified, somewhat falsifiable claims that AI just doesn’t work.
Accept something along the lines of a positive account given by an experienced software engineer - it’s useful, it presents risks but also it presents new ways to get certain work done well in much less time etc.
I agree to the utility of finding security bugs but the general utility of using LLMs is often overblown. There are studies that say that 95% of companies do not see any measurable positive impact.
The Linux kernel is likely a special case. But for other open source developer communities, it seems to have some negative impacts, too. And the full effects on maintainability of code will only be visible after some years.
I dislike LLMs/GenAI mostly due to ethical reasons (I'm aware the code quality from LLMs has increased over time), but I've already accepted the fact it's gonna be used a lot. In most cases, I can avoid software using it in favor of alternatives, but that's not always possible, such as Linux itself. I'm not gonna risk staying on outdated kernels, and I don't have the time and knowledge to maintain a fork of a whole kernel.
As for my own code, I refuse to let AI touch it because I like thinking about how to code something, and I get really happy when it works.
This mindset is the entire problem. "Oh we don't need to worry about ethics or morals, just efficiency" is exactly the issue with every pro-AI argument and every pro-capatalism argument. Its the issue with our governments, with investing, with corporations.
I say fuck anyone who argues ethics is not important when talking about efficacy. Fuck that mindset and fuck AI.
I think the point is that it actually hurts an ethics-based anti-AI argument to also claim that it has no utility, because the no-utility argument is weak and therefore makes the rest of the stance (i.e., the ethics-based argument) look weak by association.
Exactly, if you say that AI is ethically bad and doesn't work, to someone who uses it and clearly sees it works well for them, it just invalidates your argument.
If you just stick to the ethics your argument can't be dismissed in that way.
I'm finding the allure of AI is particularly strong for people who have risen to positions of power where they had to stop doing the work themselves. Instead, they had to work through other people to get bigger projects done.
The allure is that you can just say what you want done, and it does it. If it's done it "wrong" you can just tell it it's wrong and not have to worry about arguing the technical differences. As such you feel like you get closer to what you wanted, rather than somebody else's take on what you wanted.
The things is, when you are removed from the code, you can only work at a high level. That person you asked to do something is considering 10 other low level concerns that you didn't consider. I think Linus's recent patch series is a good example. He saw a potential optimisation, did a proof of concept but missed a race condition. He's now handed it over to the person that normally works in that area and knows the details. Can the optimisation actually work? Who knows?
I find myself asking the same 3 questions when considering whether or not to use an AI tool.
Is it a straightforward task where I can save significant time with a tool?
Can I verify the results?
If the tool AI makes a mistake, or if I am not thorough enough in verification, is the risk of failure low?
I'm a firm believer is using the right tool for the right job. Most of the AI's people are using are not designed for the things they are using them for, and I don't see many practical uses for generative LLMs. I will acknowledge that there are purpose built AIs to be used as a tool, but even then most of them tend to do a below average job. We're also seeing a lot of algorithmic driven models being labeled as AI, similar to calling something a "smart" device.
I feel about ai like i feel about cars. 90% of the idiots out there drive really poorly, but that doesn't mean responsible people are smart to never drive a car. Same with AI, overwhelming majority of people are using AI incorrectly, i.e. recklessly dangerously, but that doesn't mean responsible people should never use it.
Pretty good analogy because health damage from cars don't just come from accidents, which are terrible and tragically visible, but from pollution which is a lot less visible yet kills even more.
The problem with "LLM requires skill to use correctly." is that LLM's are not being sold as a skill but rather the end of skill.
I think he's kinda right in that competent engineers can write good code using LLMs. I don't know whether they're actually more productive that way though. The problem lies in the fact that incompetent engineers can write a lot of bad, but good-looking code using LLMs, which might be a pretty big burden on the maintainers.
Also, comparing LLMs to compilers doesn't really work in my opinion. Compilers follow strict rules and translate one kind of logic into a different kind of logic, while LLMs turn natural language and vague notions into some kind of logic. Writing code is telling the computer precisely what it should do and prompting is vaguely telling it what end result you want and those are two fundamentally different things.
But your analogy also breaks down because once an AI has written the code it’s very much concrete, right? The AI may choose to modify that concreteness into something differently concrete, but it’s not like you are in any doubt about what the AI comes out with (if you bother to check it, which you should).
I use to write asset systems during the AAA gaming part of my career and the elusive “[my] perfect file format” always eluded me.
Over the years I spent many a showers and long drives thinking about what the “perfect file format” needs and what kind of architecture would support this. I started formulating these into long text files and over time things crystallised into “yes this would work”.
I never had the time to write the code fully. A couple of false starts, coupled with “I should do this in rust even though I’ve been in C++ my whole life” meant it lingered and lingered.
The architecture felt right though.
Enter AI; feeding the spec text files to an AI made me resolve a couple of “ah, yes, but in practice this bit of information isn’t available yet” gotchas but the code worked. I worked in architectural layers, carefully checking input, internals and output of each before proceeding to higher layers. And tests and tests, that’s you would never have bothered to write yourself, kept each layer verifiable, even out in the far corners of reasonable.
It worked and it was real affirmation to see 20 years of pontification made real.
But then I started profiling it. And hot damn, an LLM knows nothing about cache, file systems nor does it think about ways memory allocators and virtual memory systems work.
There was 200-300% speed ups to gain from hand tuning it and iterating with a proper profiler.
And all of this happened at code level, with real concrete code.
So yeah, an AI can be a wonderful tool. And the code it produces and iterates on is concrete. It’s not like the AI starts from scratch every time you have a thought. So the very, very first pass is not deterministic. But the thing you deliver forwards very much is.
I’m no expert but a compiler does not equal and LLM built on stolen data
Neither does the use of an LLM mean you do not understand thoroughly what you submit. He doesn't give a crap how the code was created, as long as you, the human (I hope), understand what you are submitting and can take accountability for it. You are still responsible for whatever crap comes out of an LLM, the same way that you are responsible for what comes out of the compiler. Doesn't mean you shouldn't use compilers or LLMs.
LLM is like a compiler? Then please replace the C sources with English and let it compile!
Does Linus support steaming artwork and a fascist surveillance state? Because using and supporting and entrenching the technology use is exactly that.
He doesn't get it... Have the big corpo-shilling libertarians rotted his brain?
Like, imagine if using "AI" consisted of whatever big corpo SaaS you subscribe to sending your prompt off to someone to work on then send the result back to you. Isn't that an idiotic dependency to have? And why the fuck even go through the middleman? Oh they have the "best workers?" Fuck that. Nvidia makes the best cards, but you don't see me buying from them.
Do people like Linus not realise how silly it is to offload your work to some middleman service that just steals work from people who do not consent to sharing their labour? Who are desperately throwing insane, GDP-level boatloads of cash at it this unknown technology in the hopes that they'll somehow get people hooked on their particular chatbot?
The intentions of these companies are not good. Their entire valuation is not based on being a "force multiplier" or whatever bullshit, but on being able to threaten or fire workers if they don't slot themselves into the newest enunciation of hype-based capital.
Anything you do to willingly boost or massage these corporate services is enabling actually vile companies to continue puffing air into their stupid pointless bubble until it bursts and the next generation has to eat tuna helper sans tuna just to be able to afford to live.
The amount of bootlicking Linus has been doing recently is insane. I expected this bs from anyone but him. Such a sad reality we are living in.