this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2024
227 points (98.7% liked)

Technology

58711 readers
3984 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related content.
  3. Be excellent to each another!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed

Approved Bots


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

A college is removing its vending machines after a student discovered they were using facial recognition technology::A photo shared on Reddit showed one of the vending machines with an error code suggesting it used facial recognition tech.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] dhork@lemmy.world 48 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

On the one hand, I can totally understand that there is a difference between recognizing a face and recognizing your face. Algorithms that recognize a face are really easy to implement now.

On the other hand, though, why should a vending machine need to recognize a face? So it shuts off it's lighting when no one is looking at it? I'm not sure if there is any practical benefit besides some project manager justifying a new feature with buzzword-compliant tech.

I believe the company when they say there is nothing problematic here, but they deserve the bad press for thinking it would be a good idea in the first place.

[–] OpenStars@startrek.website 42 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Their corporate website mentions that they use the data for marketing purposes. Whatever type of face they see - e.g. male or female, large or skinny, etc. - gets correlated with what was purchased, and then they sell that data for marketing purposes. Exactly like Google selling your search history, except with likely fewer restrictions in place.

Their website doesn't mention how often they get hacked to give away that data for free - to be clear, that data meaning A PICTURE OF YOUR ACTUAL FUCKING FACE. I don't know what resolution, or even what someone would do with it later, I am focusing here on the fact that the picture taking seems nonconsensual, especially for it to be stored in a database rather than simply used in the moment.

[–] dhork@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

They claim to be GPDR compliant, and while I am not an EUian I think if that claim is accurate, they can't be doing any of those things you mention.

My point is, even if we take them at their word that the facial recognition is benign, it was still a dumb choice.

[–] mosiacmango@lemm.ee 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

GPDR only applies in the EU, and this happened in Canada. They may actually be GPDR compliant in europe, but have they stated whether they are following those laws where they aren't legally required to?

[–] dhork@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Most companies who sell worldwide won't bother developing one set of firmware which is GPDR compliant for the EU, and another set for the rest of the world, unless there was an explicit business reason to do so. So when they replied about this incident in Canada with their GPDR status, I thought it was implied that they had only one codebase which was GPDR compliant, and they ship it in Canada, not because they have to but because it's all they have.

[–] mosiacmango@lemm.ee 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

The assumption is exactly what they are hoping for and the problem. They say they adhere to the GPDR, but not that they adhere to it everywhere, regardless of legal requirement. If they do adhere to its requirements everywhere, it would be an easy thing to state.

The article has comments from the manufacturer and the company that stocks the machine and both state that they dont take or store pictures, but are purposely vague about what data they so take and storing. I expect this is due to it still being a creepy level of information about their customer base that is another revenue stream they exploit.

[–] Vlyn@lemmy.zip 2 points 7 months ago

A PICTURE OF YOUR ACTUAL FUCKING FACE

That's not how this works. The most likely use case is using a picture of your face, letting the algorithm run (which then finds out if you're male, female, roughly how old) and then they throw the picture away. The actual collected data is anonymous, so if they did that it might even be GDPR compliant in the EU (otherwise they'd break several laws).

There really is no value in having a picture of your actual face, it's just a lot of trouble in waiting.

[–] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 12 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Of note, it'd be pretty easy to push an OTA software update to have it go from recognizing a face to recognizing your face

then of course linking your card/phone to your face. maybe you can get a text message reminding you that you ate one this time last week and "youre not yourself when you're hungry"

[–] ohto@lemmy.sdf.org 7 points 7 months ago (1 children)

They need to recognize a face because they explicitly state in their FAQ they are estimating purchasers’ age and sex. This isn’t just adjusting lighting. I would not be so quick to say there is nothing problematic here. I’m highly skeptical.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] ohto@lemmy.sdf.org 39 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (10 children)

Based on the quotes from the vending company, at first I thought this was just a dumb way to detect when a human is standing there. But it’s worse than that.

So first we get this from a company representative:

The technology acts as a motion sensor that detects faces, so the machine knows when to activate the purchasing interface

Ok, fine. Overkill, but fine. But then their company’s FAQ tells us this:

only the final data, namely presence of a person, estimated age and estimated gender, is collected without any association with an individual.

So they ARE collecting data, and they are trying to obfuscate that fact by saying they are just “activating the purchasing interface”. This isn’t just turning on a lighted display when a person is standing there. “Activating the purchasing interface” means activating the algorithms to analyze my appearance. They are trying to figure out who is buying their product. That’s different.

So they are being shady about their true intentions. They aren’t being up front, and they expect us to trust that they aren’t storing or transmitting anything other than estimated age and sex. Hmm, maybe. But their actions don’t build trust.

Plus, now I have to worry about VENDING MACHINES getting hacked and being used as surveillance devices now too?? Can I just buy a candy bar without being reminded we live in a dystopia?

load more comments (10 replies)
[–] swordgeek@lemmy.ca 28 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I'm surprised nobody has discussed the most obvious "marketing" use of this data: Differential pricing.

Someone walks up to the machine. Based on the image seen by the machine, they determine which product is most likely to sell, and bump that product's price up by a quarter or 50 cents.

If they're not doing it now, they're preparing to do it in the near future.

EDIT If you watch Invenda's marketing videos, they talk about how the 'optical sensor' provides a 'bespoke purchasing experience.'

Sounds exactly like dynamic pricing is their model.

[–] NegativeInf@lemmy.world 10 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Alternatively, I have seen the vending machines with giant screens on the front that play ads for different drinks. Perhaps they will use it for advertising decisions as well.

[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 2 points 7 months ago

It's not either or. It can easily be both and selling any data they can as well.

[–] captainastronaut@seattlelunarsociety.org 23 points 7 months ago (2 children)

A simple motion sensor would have sufficed. A classic example of someone getting excited about a Tech buzzword and cramming it into a product.

[–] CaptainSpaceman@lemmy.world 8 points 7 months ago

Data like facial recognition can be sold, assuming it was storing and/or sending it somewhere.

[–] Gork@lemm.ee 2 points 7 months ago

Motion sensor is all well and good until they start to implement gait recognition and sell that data as well.

It'll soon know you by your sick dance moves.

[–] pr06lefs@lemmy.ml 22 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Lesson learned: don't name your surveillance tool EvilFaceRecognition.exe

[–] Municipal0379@lemmy.world 13 points 7 months ago (2 children)

How about totallylegitfacerecognition.exe?

[–] humorlessrepost@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago

“Don’t be evil”

[–] clif@lemmy.world 10 points 7 months ago (1 children)

We got a phishing campaign at work awhile back with an attachment named "OktaAccountStealer.pdf"

... I was impressed. What I really want to know is how many people opened it anyway.

[–] dhork@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

They do shit like that on purpose. Someone who is aware enough to read the names of attachments probably won't fall for the rest of their scam. Its a filter to make sure they don't waste their effort on anyone other than the most gullible.

[–] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 10 points 7 months ago (1 children)

As facial recognition becomes easier and cheaper, you are going to find it in all sorts of things. From your refrigerator to your child’s toy. Better get used to it, because that is the future. We should all invest in stickers to place on all the cameras, or guillotines… for the tech ceos

[–] demonsword@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago

We should all invest in stickers to place on all the cameras, or guillotines… for the tech ceos

why not both

[–] nymwit@lemm.ee 7 points 7 months ago

How about some consent and payment for my info? Swingy peephole cover thing over the camera. Offer a discount if the machine can take a picture of you. Oh that's right, it's only worth something when you amass a ton of the data. 0.004 cents off isn't that appealing is it?

[–] SuperSynthia@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago (1 children)

It’s funny how much I love cyberpunk fiction but how much I hate cyberpunk reality. Now if the vending machine becomes sentient? Then we are good, until then I guess fuck these guys?

[–] dhork@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago

I'll gladly welcome the sentient machines if they can make me a sandwich now and then

[–] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I wasn't against the idea of using facial recognition (age/gender) to do things like recommend products, where I first saw it in Japan on train station vending machines.

The difference is that in my example the camera was in a very obvious spot, here it seems it is covertly collecting facial recognition data, and users weren't aware it was happening until a student noticed this error.

[–] OpenStars@startrek.website 1 points 7 months ago

I wouldn't mind if like I told my phone to send out a signal "I am a man, but I like cold tea". Partnering together with the machine to help me buy something I will enjoy is truly helpful.

Consent makes all the difference in the world.

[–] autotldr@lemmings.world 4 points 7 months ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:


A university in Canada is expected to remove a series of vending machines from campus after a student discovered a sign they used facial recognition technology.

"The technology acts as a motion sensor that detects faces, so the machine knows when to activate the purchasing interface — never taking or storing images of customers."

"The software conducts local processing of digital image maps derived from the USB optical sensor in real-time, without storing such data on permanent memory mediums or transmitting it over the Internet to the Cloud."

Representatives for the University of Waterloo, Invenda Group, Adaria Vending Services, and Mars did not respond to Business Insider's request for comment sent over the weekend ahead of publication.

Facial recognition technology on college campuses is an ongoing tension point for students and staff members, with examples popping up globally.

Tensions heightened in March 2020 when students at dozens of US universities protested facial recognition on college campuses, The Guardian reported.


The original article contains 610 words, the summary contains 159 words. Saved 74%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

[–] Desistance@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

A solution in search of a problem. They didn't need that tech for a payment interface.

[–] swordgeek@lemmy.ca -1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

No, but they need it to dynamically adjust pricing based on customer demographics.

[–] Cringe2793@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago

Do they actually dynamically adjust pricing? Or is thst just fear mongering over technology?

[–] ProxyZeus@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Glad the college I went to is too cheap for these fancy things. Their vending machines are just barely smart enough to use tap pay, and by barely I sometimes it doesn't even work.

[–] ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works -2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Honestly, what's the big deal? Your face is not secret and anyone who feels like it can photograph you while you're out in public. Vending machines already know who you are if you use a credit card.

However, this is a good reminder to programmers: customers might sometimes see your error messages even if you didn't intend them to. Don't write anything Marketing wouldn't like.

[–] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 2 points 7 months ago

The part that miffs me is that the fact that no one was aware the vending machine was using facial recognition until a student found the error. It would be okay to me if it wasn't being covert about it.

[–] RubberElectrons@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)
[–] Cringe2793@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Did they implement this? Or just fear mongering over technology?

load more comments
view more: next ›