I think it's an acceptable course of action to vote 3rd party if you are in a solid red or solid blue state. However, I think the way you phrased it got people's hackles raised.
this post was submitted on 11 Apr 2024
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Thanks for agreeing. đ€
How would you have phrased it?
"It's alright to vote 3rd party if you're not in a swing state" or something like that. The Overton window shifted away from the idea that there's some moral failing for voting for Biden because of the anti-voting astroturfing that happened recently.
Where are you getting this idea of anti-voting astroturfing? All the propaganda I see seems to be catered to getting people to vote for the lesser of two evils.
Also don't get me wrong. I'm very much against not voting. I just don't see any money being spent on pushing anti-voting but maybe I've missed it. đ€·
Russia is known to do this at this point. A sudden spike in talking about how voting for [current DNC candidate] is immoral usually fortells a report a few months later that it was started by Russians being paid to spread that message. The fact that lemmygrad, .ml, and Hexbear users suddenly started pushing it 2 weeks ago right after Biden started making serious progress against Israel suggests this is the case. I don't know that Russian bots are using Hexbear as a staging ground, but even if they aren't it's still at the very least directly downstream from Russian propaganda.
Kind stranger, I will keep an eye out for this. Thank you for bringing this to my attention and for talking with me like a normal person. đ
I hope you have a great day. đđ
It's russia and their shills but it's also tankies and other shills, fash, stooges, etc.
They want the fash cheeto.
You think "tankies" want trump? I'm going to need a source for that one.
The other groups I'm totally with you on. But I don't understand why more moderate lefties are so quick to pretend that far lefties are fascist. Unless you meant something else by that term, I've only ever heard it used to describe socialists.
Liberals are just a hop and a skip away from being full blown nazis so they hate on the actual Left to try and convince people they are radical crazy people and the liberal nazis are the norm.
I guess so. Cut a liberal a fascist bleeds đ
They're not actually the same, btw. The person's absolutely cracked.
Edit: to be more specific, they just equated liberals with Nazis and then accused me of being a liberal (and thus adjacent to being a Nazi) because I disagreed. These are the kinds of people you should generally distrust.
Liberals and fascists are in fact very, very different. Convoluting the two only serves to distance potential allies and elevate the standing of fascists.
Found the liberal
I didn't have work today. Thanks to the union, I was able to take a couple of hours for a walk, enjoy the sounds of birds, smelled the flowers, buy a stupidly unhealthy meal, and eat it while watching a playlist consisting of anarchist news media and Tolkien literature analysis.
Going outside, being in nature, and connecting with the people around you as well as speaking with people you disagree with are all healthy activities that you should try when you're able. Also, if you don't have a union, fix that as soon as possible.
Iirc, Infrahaz is or was in favor of Trump, as was Caleb Maupin (who also notably worked for Russia Today) when he was still around. Also, Tankies aren't socialists.
What does tankie mean to you? Genuine question I promise. This is what I see when I Google the term. 
Generally, tankies are individuals who advocate for authoritarian regimes while claiming both they and the regimes are leftists. These regimes usually include russia, china, or North korea. Communism is a classless, moneyless, stateless society. Every single country that tankies usually advocate for fails in every single one of these criteria, and so I do not believe it is useful to refer to them as communists.
These definitions may be flawed, but they are what I am currently using, which was the question.
Thanks for clarifying đđ
While I donât doubt that russia benefits from trump winning and Democrat voters not voting, the reason why hexbears (and other communists or socialists) donât believe in voting is accurate, but shitty.
Voting for a communist party wonât work in america, since such a party will never be able to gain political power due to state repression stopping their movements, generations of anti-left propaganda, and probably a dozen other reasons that were debated before bush was even in office. While I donât understand a lot of ML theory, I do know itâs old.
While anti-voting rhetoric already exists on hexbear, I think itâs a terrible place to try and reach people who would actually vote for biden since most instances arenât federated. While lemmy.ml is federated, a lot of people are hyper-vigilant about tankies there, and therefore will distrust anything against the grain that ckmes from there.
As an anarchist, I donât believe in voting either, but Iâd be stupid if I didnât recognize that voting does have consequences, even if they arenât what Iâd want. Anarchists often believe that means and ends are entwined, and therefore supporting a hierarchical system can never get rid of it, much less that supporting the state could ever topple it.
I agree with OP that itâs perfectly fine to not vote biden in a solid red/blue state, and since I live in such a state, Iâm not voting for Biden. But I havenât really seen an uptick in anti-voting posts (admittedly I have some hexbear communities blocked).
About 2 weeks ago (it feels like less, but that's what my history says) there was a deluge of them in a few meme communities that I happen to frequent, notably on blahaj 196.
accurate, but shitty
Please explain. Edit: oh, do you mean they won't vote because they can't vote in a communist?
The accuracy comes from the fact that in the american system, there is not, and wonât be, a candidate or hopeful that can have an impact to bring america in a socialistic direction, or for the more electoral MLs, there is no communist/socialist candidate. Either way, most people on the far left, anarchist, communist, etc, also recognize that if there is a person of their values who gets into power, odds are they will either be milquetoast in the end and coopt the movement. Or if things are particularly bad, there will be a conflict due to such a candidate winning.
I think those people are silly. They are too far-sighted to consider the local scale of elections and the conditions that come from them, even though I generally agree with the critiques of the electoral system
So is the Genocide Biden is supporting Russian propaganda?
The genocide in Palestine will be worsened if Trump wins the election.
Please don't misrepresent me like that again, and touch some grass.
How can it get worse? There is nothing left in Gaza... not a single building is habital anymore.
Spelling/grammar fixations are a way to be biased against people with less education, less experience with English... it's obnoxious and rudely dismissive.
Honestly kind of feel like crying seeing the comment section. I like the articles on Lemmy, but the attitude of the commenters is so mean. I don't know how anyone decides that the best thing to do is to belittle someone for a typo, and how it's so upvoted. That's not praxis, it's elitist and bullying someone when you don't know if they have a disability, less access to education than you, maybe they're just tired.
Thanks you strangers âșïž. I didn't have a good education growing up. I actually grew up in a cult. I managed to leave on my own when I was 16. Since I've gotten myself a degree but I've never really gotten spelling and grammar completely figured out. There are a lot of things I honestly just missed out on basic education wise.
I always assume the people focus on that have no way of reasonably disagreeing with me. I guess they just get mad they're wrong đ€·. Just a bunch of classist elitist assholes who couldn't think their way out of a paper bag.
I mean, by your logic, wouldnât that turn every state into a swing state after the election? And does your advice only apply to a small group of people? Because, well, if it applied to everyone with problems with Biden (which is nearly everyone), it wouldnât track logically.
How would that turn every state into a swing state? đ€Ł
Do you think I'm going to change the mind of every single person who would vote for Biden? Despite how almost every single person that sees this idea reacts extremely negatively. Getting a viable third party is a long-term strategy. It's an important, long-term strategy. But it's not going to happen this election lol. What I'm hoping for this election is a third party candidate gets enough votes that their third party becomes more mainstream and that over time we will have better options.
Iâm just saying, your logic only works if enough people dont follow it. That kind of makes it bad advice.
When youâre aligning yourself with pro-fascistsâor at least have the exact same tactics (minus an exception), you cannot be on the right side of history.
Iâve been wrestling with this for my whole life. I was a young anarchist, Iâve been a third party voter most of that time. Now Iâm an adult anarchist. AndâŠI just canât bring myself to do exactly what pro-fascists are pushing for people just like me to do.
We all get it. The system is broken. Two party systems are doomed to be a road to fascism. We are reaching the end of that road. None of us can stomach whatâs happening in Gaza. But gambling with an even more pro-genocide candidate winning justâŠcanât be tolerated. It doesnât make emotional sense. Because we canât stomach supporting someone who is participating in genocide. It hurts. But itâs kind of on us to bear the brunt of that conundrum because we are fighting bald-faced fascism. Getting to hold your head up high because you didnât support the guy aiding in a genocide is a pretty small victory for gambling with the lives of Palestinian people. Trump wants to âfinishâ the situation in Gaza. And not in a good way.
Itâs a shitty situation for us to have to negotiate. But weâre not the ones gambling with our own lives. Weâre gambling with the lives of trans people, women who need abortions, those living in poverty, the environmentâŠjust so we can âsend a measage?â
The system is arranged to keep third parties from being viable. Voting for them just doesnât make sense, because there is no changing that without changing the system. Especially in this election. Because we are staring down the barrel of fascism, for one, and secondly, there isnât enough support for the idea to really have the impact you want. It can only go bad. Waiting until the day of the election to send that message or put some plan to change things in place is so incredibly foolish when you consider all youâre gambling with. You want to change things? Put in the groundwork, year in, year out.
All youâre doing is throwing extra danger into the pot and supporting the people who are pushing your same messaging in order to see trump win. JustâŠhow can you justify it?
I am going to try to show you the same kindness and genuineness you are showing me.
"Iâm just saying, your logic only works if enough people dont follow it. That kind of makes it bad advice." I think this is a key part. I know the vast majority of people that hear my advice will not take it. So I am depending on that. I also feel it's correct. I think it wouldn't be unrealistic for me to expect everyone or even most of the people who hear it to take it to heart. Do you think I'm wrong?
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/rfk-fires-staffer-endorsed-trump-reelection-1235002839/ I think I see this news article a different way then you do. I hate rfk and wouldn't recommend voting for him unless that vote was going to go to trump instead. I also don't believe most of the votes going to rfk would have gone to Biden. I believe the COVID conspiracist that want to vote for him were much more likely to be trumpers. I think a lot of the fear on the media that all third party votes would ha e otherwise gone to Biden is wrong. I may be crazy but I think of the Dems pied Piper strategy and wonder if this related. They really seem to like catching us in thos lesser of two evils trap. I live in Maryland. The Dems helped far right candidate David Cox get the Republican nominee in our last govenors race. I ended up voting dem because it scared me. Democrat nominee won hands down because Maryland is a blue state but I was tricked. I feel similarly about this presidential election now.
"When youâre aligning yourself with pro-fascistsâor at least have the exact same tactics (minus an exception), you cannot be on the right side of history." Doesn't this with us or against us rhetoric feel odd to you? I believe the "unless you live in a swing state" part of my sentiment is what clearly divides me from them.
"Two party systems are doomed to be a road to fascism. We are reaching the end of that road." I completely agree and I think we need to start taking a third party exit. I know this is a many election process but starting now is better than later and the safest way to do so is to try to convince as many people in non-swing states to start voting third party. That momentum takes time.
"Itâs a shitty situation for us to have to negotiate. But weâre not the ones gambling with our own lives. Weâre gambling with the lives of trans people, women who need abortions, those living in poverty, the environmentâŠjust so we can âsend a measage?â " As a side note I am not the wealthy cis het man you seem to think I am.
"All youâre doing is throwing extra danger into the pot and supporting the people who are pushing your same messaging in order to see trump win. JustâŠhow can you justify it?" In this way, by only promoting this idea for voters in non swing states I believe additional risk is minimized. I also believe this is the only way to possible make things better by ballot. Outside of this the only ways I can imagine the USA getting off this "two party road to fascism" (to borrow your elegant words) will create much more misfortune and suffering before getting better.
Also just to clarify. I know trump is worse on all fronts compared to Biden. Whether it's Palestine or pro working class policy at home. I hate trump and I also see him winning as the worst case scenario for the election. You don't have to convince me of any of that. I think our only disagreement really lies in how much additional risk voting third party in non swing states generates but please tell me if you think otherwise.
Also thanks for talking to me like a normal person đ
Do you think Iâm wrong?
I mean, I think you and I feel very similarly. We are disillusioned, angry, we feel hopeless. Iâm not 100% in favor of my strategy. Because it means supporting someone I donât actually support. But, having weighed the pros and cons, I just feel like there is so much to lose for vulnerable communities. And, on the whole, I feel most peoplesâ true intentions in advocating for this are ultimately selfish. Iâm not saying that is your motivation at all. You could very much be an idealist. But as a fellow idealist feeling the need to give into my realism as I get older, I find its best to sacrifice yourself and your own sense of idealistic purity for othersâagain, Iâm not saying youâre doing the opposite. Itâs a super complicated and shitty lose-lose scenario.
I think I see this news article a little differently than you doâŠ
I agree that not all third party votes would otherwise be votes for Biden. But itâs been proven over and over and has been a Republican strategy for a long time to suppress turnout. Because they arenât popular. Their ideas are terrible and no one actually likes them. Their supporters are just angry and want to hurt others.
So my thinking is, if itâs a Republican strategy to push third party candidates, and itâs the third party candidatesâ campaignsâ position that they are the only hope to defeat a vote against the fascistâŠI meanâŠtheyâre not like you and me basing our opinions mostly on rough approximations. They are looking at data that shows how this changes things. There are few things I trust republicans and antivax nutjobs on, but this subject is one of themâprobably the only one.
Doesnât this with us or against us rhetoric feel odd to you?
I get where youâre coming from. But thatâs not the way I look at my position at all. If I were a democrat pushing this type of thinking with the motive of getting more votes for my preferred candidate, yeah, thatâd be my problematic position.
But Iâm a leftist that has gone back and forth on this issue and debated it in my head for more than half of my life. I get what youâre saying, and sometimes I feel exactly how you feel.
Itâs justâŠa complicated issue and we are both looking at the same thing, seeing the same issues, and coming up with different answers. Literally, after your post I was thinking to myself, âwellâŠIâm in NY. IâŠcould probably do this.â But after 2016, I felt so much guilt, for the first time in my life, for voting third party. And that threw my entire view on the subject into doubt.
I dunno. I donât have the answer. And apologies if I seemed to have assumed you were a cishet white guy. Theyâre just usually the most likely to throw everyone elseâs caution to the wind to advocate for their own ideas. Not that thatâs what you were doing. Just that they always feel the most comfortable in being reckless with othersâ safety and well-being.
No need to apologize for the bit at the end stranger. đ
You're a good dudeđđ
You've given me some things to think about. Again I appreciate your input and your knowledge and your kindness.
I know youâre wrong. Stop it.
No â
So.. What is a two party system again? What's the difference to other systems? Also why are only Republicans and Democrats so popular?
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two party system is kind of a misnomer, there's plenty of other parties and potential parties in the US, a lot of which would theoretically correspond to larger parties in more healthy democratic states. The difference is that since the US operates on plurality voting, only two parties are ever going to have major influence in any electoral area, some countries like Canada and the UK have more diverse political ecosystems, but that's born more out of the ability of parties in both to form voting coalitions. In the US the Democrats and Republicans each encompass big tents that hold several groups that would otherwise be their own political parties.
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It's less that they're both popular and more that nobody is capable of organizing a meaningful alternative unless it happens to be during the one time of the political season when you really should have the alternative well established already. Both parties have been around for over a century now and have proven ideologically flexible enough to avoid the doom of prior parties like the Federalists, Democratic-Republicans, and Whigs that had previously held one of the two top spots.
I see a likely future where some great mechanism of upheaval will bring about a nation spanning voting reform in the US, and when that happens the Dems and the Republicans will likely remain as the two top players but now amidst a large field of options that are able to compete with one another without spoiling elections for the overall wing of the political spectrum they lay within, longer term would be harder to predict as those kinds of democracies haven't existed for long enough to observe how parties shift change and move forward and backward relative to one another over a more extended period than a few decades.
This is the important part to understand the difference between lets say the âEuropean systemâ vs. the âUS systemâ:
In the US the Democrats and Republicans each encompass big tents that hold several groups that would otherwise be their own political parties.
The US negotiates the different political streams within one of the two parties before the elections. Whereas in most European countries these negotiations happen after the elections in coalition building. Have a look at scandinavian elections and you will see blocks that can be interpreted as a hybrid form.
Stranger,
I'm happy to discuss and already biased into thinking you're a nice person because you didn't start off by being rude to me.đ
I would prefer if you told me what you think directly without leading questions. Is that possible?
I also want to clarify, I know no third party candidate has a chance to win this election. But I believe the only nonviolent path we really have to get out of this two-party system is to elect 3rd party leaders. That is a long term strategy that will take many elections but the only way to get that ball rolling is to slowly build up the membership and votes for third party candidates. The safest way to do that is to encourage people in non-swing states to start voting for them.
That is my thought process.
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