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Lefty Memes

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That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme. Please post agitprop here)


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When writing stuff like "lol" and "iirc", it's a good idea to try and replace those with their all caps counterpart

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  • etc.

Why? Because otherwise (AFAIK), screen readers will try to read them out as actually words instead of spelling them


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Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.


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The only dangerous minority is the rich.


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We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.


6. Don't irrationally idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.


Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.


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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

You're continuing to be excessively vague. Marx did understand broadly why people act the way they do. People act in their own perceived self-interest, and the way they view the world is determined largely by the material conditions they find themselves in, how they live, produce, and distribute the gains of production. Further, Marx's theories absolutely do work in practice, what are you getting at by saying they don't? This is another vague statement that flies in the face of empirical evidence.

[–] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

People act in their own perceived self-interest

No, they don't. That is where he is wrong. People frequently act against their perceived self interest out of fear, hate, mental instability, or any number of other reasons.

Further, Marx's theories absolutely do work in practice

Ah, like the USSR? Nope. Venezuela? Nope. Cuba? Nope. China? Trick question, they adopted state capitalism in the 70s and are a totalitarian state domestically.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

People do not act against their perceived self-interest as a class. You're ignoring the perceived part as well, the self-perception is a key point. Self-perception can run against real self-interest.

As for the USSR, Cuba, and PRC, the answer is a resounding yes. Marxism works and worked in all 3 examples (Venezuela isn't Marxist, it's Chavista).

The soviet union was a dictatorship of the proletariat. The Soviets brutalized the capitalists, tsarists, fascists, landlords, and kulaks, while liberating the workers and peasants. The USSR had steady and consistent economic growth, and provided free, high quality education and healthcare, full employment, cheap or free housing, and fantastic infrastructure and city planning that still lasts to this day despite capitalism neglecting it. This rapid development resulted in dramatic democratization of society, reduced disparity, doubling of life expectancy, tripling of functional literacy rates to 99.9%, and much more. Living in the 1930s famine would not have been good, but it was the last major famine outside of wartime because the soviets ended famine in their countries.

Literacy rates, societal guarantees in the 1936 constitution, reports on the healthcare system over time, and more are good sources for these claims.

The USSR brought dramatic democratization to society. First-hand accounts from Statesian journalist Anna Louise Strong in her book This Soviet World describe soviet elections and factory councils in action. Statesian Pat Sloan even wrote Soviet Democracy to describe in detail the system the soviets had built for curious Statesians to read about, and today we have Professor Roland Boer's Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance to reference.

When it comes to social progressivism, the soviet union was among the best out of their peers, so instead we must look at who was actually repressed outside of the norm. In the USSR, it was the capitalist class, the kulaks, the fascists who were repressed. This is out of necessity for any socialist state. When it comes to working class freedoms, however, the soviet union represented a dramatic expansion. Soviet progressivism was documented quite well in Albert Syzmanski's Human Rights in the Soviet Union.

The truth, when judged based on historical evidence and contextualization, is that socialism was the best thing to happen to Russia in the last few centuries, and its absence has been devastating.

Death rates spiked:

And wealth disparity skyrocketed alongside the newly impoverished majority:

Capitalism brought with it skyrocketing poverty rates, drug abuse, prostitution, homelessness, crime rates, and lowered life expectancy. An estimated 7 million people died due to the dissolution of socialism and reintroduction of capitalism, and this is why the large majority of post-soviet citizens regret its fall. A return to socialism is the only path forward for the post-soviet countries. A lot of Eastern European countries were swarmed with western capital during the destruction of socialism, which is what temporarily caused the rise of the far-right in these countries, but in time their problems will no longer be able to be ignored.

The PRC has what is called a Socialist Market Economy. In short, public ownership is the principal, ie dominant and rising, aspect of the economy, hence socialism, while there exists marketization and competition for small and competitive industries, hence market. The theoretical basis of this economy is in classical Marxism, which views private property and markets as progressive with respect to underdeveloped, disparate, disconnected production, and planned production as progressive once markets have centralized, as the path forward once large industry is constructed.

The scientific basis of Marxist socialism is in the understanding that markets centralize over time, stitching together the entire national and then international economy. Markets turn disconnected production of towns into connected production with huge logistical chains and mass industry. Central planning is best accomplished with this already developed industry, where competition dies out and markets become less efficient, while central planning becomes not only more efficient, but required for further economic growth. The previously mentioned work by Roland Boer also goes over Chinese democracy.

The PRC is a developing country. Large swathes of land and production is still underdeveloped, while huge state owned enterprises dominate the economy, with the working class at the driver's seat via the CPC. This process of gradually folding private property into the public sector as it grows is called the "birdcage model," and is how China keeps capitalists and private property in check. It's also why they do not have a fully collectivized economy yet. See the diagram by Chinese economist Cheng Enfu's diagram on stages of socialism:

Cuba similarly has achieved incredibly high literacy rates, life expectancy, and more despite intense embargo. Again, this is proof of socialism absolutely working. Socialism works, and works astoundingly well, with or without your knowledge of it.

[–] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You're ignoring the perceived part as well, the self-perception is a key point.

Convenient. Any time people look like they are acting against their self interest, you can just say that people don't "perceive" it that way and still look like you are right.

The soviet union was a dictatorship of the proletariat.

A dictator cannot be part of the proletariat by definition and the USSR failed. Communism failed.

China is run by a corrupt elite and their chosen pet oligarchs. It has an abhorrent civil rights record. It is no way a success story of a proletariat state.

Cuba's Soviet-style command economy lowers productivity and prevents the country from fully participating in the global economy. Monetary reforms have caused massive inflation and currency devaluation. People have been abandoning the island in droves for decades because the quality of life is poor. It in no way represents a successful Communist state.

Socialism when implemented alongside capitalist policies can work. Communism has not and cannot work.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Your assertion that people on average knowingly work against their own self-interest requires mountains of evidence. All of human history points to the opposite.

As for the dictatorship of the proletariat, it does not mean the proletariat led by a dictator, but the entire class of the proletariat above the rest of the classes. It means a democratic society run by and for workers, with no political power allowed to landlords, fascists, capitalists, etc. as a class. This is basic Marxism.

As for the USSR, it indeed did fail, and it did so largely because reforms under Gorbachev undermined the socialist system, and because Yeltsin and his clique destroyed it from within. It did not need to dissolve, it was killed from above.

As for China, you're nakedly wrong.

In China, the backbone of the economy is in the public sector, in huge State Owned Enterprises. The large firms and key industries in China are overwhelmingly publicly owned, while private ownership is relegated to small industry and highly competitive industries. As for working hours, the average is between 40 and 48 hours, usually hovering around 44-46. 996 is illegal, was largely in big tech firms, and is overall rare.

The PRC is a socialist state, not a state capitalist state like the Republic of Korea, US Empire, or Singapore. China being socialist has nothing to do with the name of the party in control, and everything to do with the mode of production and distribution in China. Rather than a neoliberal paradise, it’s closer to a nightmare for neoliberals. This editorial from The Guardian explains it quite well, actually:

But Xi’s support for mixing private and public ownership structures was purely pragmatic. It had value, he said in another forum, because it would “improve the socialist market economic structure.” Xi’s assessment is echoed by Michael Collins, one of the CIA’s most senior officials for Asia. “The fundamental end of the Communist party of China under Xi Jinping is all the more to control that society politically and economically,” Collins argued earlier this year. “The economy is being viewed, affected and controlled to achieve a political end.”

...

The party’s overarching aim, though, has remained consistent: to ensure that the private sector, and individual entrepreneurs, do not become rival players in the political system. The party wants economic growth, but not at the expense of tolerating any organised alternative centres of power.

“[Capitalists] act as if they are being chased by a bear,” wrote Zhang Lin, a Beijing political commentator, in response to these comments. “They are powerless to control the bear, so they are competing to outrun each other to escape the animal.”

How then, does China’s economy work? Public ownership is the principal aspect of China’s economy. This means that public ownership governs the large firms and key industries, and is what is rising in China, as private ownership is kept to small and medium non-essential industries. No system is static, meaning identifying the nature of a system depends on identifying what is rising and what is dying away. Cpitalists are held on a tight leash, and are prevented from gaining political power as a class. The reason private ownership is allowed at all is because China has very uneven development due to their rapid industrialization, and private ownership does help with filling in gaps left by the primary aspects of the economy like SOEs.

The form of democracy and the mode of production in China ensures that there is a connection between the people and the state. Policies like the mass line are in place to ensure this direct connection remains. This is why over 90% of the Chinese population supports the government, and why they have such strong perceptions around democracy:

The Chinese political system is based on whole-process people’s democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China’s success.

I highly recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we’ve learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.

China does have billionaires, as you might then protest. China is in the developing stages of socialism. Between capitalism, which is characterized by private ownership being the principal aspect of the economy and the capitalists in control of the state, and communism, characterized by full collectivization of production and distribution devoid of classes and the state, run along the lines of a common plan, is socialism, where public ownership is principle and the working classes in control. China in particular is working its way out of the initial stages of socialism:

The reason China has billionaires is because China has private property, and the reason it has private property is because of 2 major factors: the world economy is still dominated by the US empire, and because you cannot simply abolish private property at the stroke of a pen. China tried that already. The Gang of Four tried to dogmatically force a publicly owned and planned economy when the infrastructure best suited to that hadn’t been laid out by markets, and as a consequence growth was positive but highly unstable.

Why does it matter that the US Empire controls the world economy? Because as capitalism monopolizes, it is compelled to expand outward in order to fight falling rates of profit by raising absolute profits. The merging of bank and industrial capital into finance capital leads to export of capital, ie outsourcing. This process allows super-exploitation for super-profits, and is known as imperialism.

In the People’s Republic of China, under Mao and later the Gang of Four, growth was overall positive but was unstable. The centrally planned economy had brought great benefits in many areas, but because the productive forces themselves were underdeveloped, economic growth wasn’t steady. There began to be discussion and division in the party, until Deng Xiapoing’s faction pushing for Reform and Opening Up won out, and growth was stabilized.

Deng’s plan was to introduce market reforms, localized around Special Economic Zones, while maintaining full control over the principle aspects of the economy. Limited private capital would be introduced, especially by luring in foreign investors, such as the US, pivoting from more isolationist positions into one fully immersed in the global marketplace. As the small and medium firms grow into large firms, the state exerts more control and subsumes them more into the public sector. This was a gamble, but unlike what happened to the USSR, this was done in a controlled manner that ended up not undermining the socialist system overall.

To dogmatically collectivize the entire economy would actually be a move undesirable by Marxist standards. Certain economies like the DPRK and USSR have had to do so in order to develop military deterrence, China managed to negotiate itself into the global economy and take advantage of the utility of markets in socializing the small industries, making them ripe for central planning.

As for Cuba, their economy isn't what's preventing them from trading with the world, it's a brutal embargo by the US Empire. Cuba has and does trade with friendly countries, it is being actively impeded by the US. Despite this, life expectancy often exceeds even the US, because their socialist system makes low resources stretch farther.

I cannot understate this: you have no idea what you are talking about, be it about Marxism or socialism in practice.

[–] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Your assertion that people on average knowingly work against their own self-interest requires mountains of evidence.

Alcoholism and drug addiction? Failure to address global warming? Nuclear proliferation?

but the entire class of the proletariat above the rest of the classes

And the proletariat was below the political class.

because reforms under Gorbachev undermined the socialist system,

So much for the democratic system you claimed existed. It's almost like that is an inherently failing of Marxism.

China is in the developing stages of socialism.

No country has ever gone beyond the developing stages of socialism because Marx was wrong.

[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Alcoholism and drug addiction

People largely partake as coping mechanisms or to fit in with groups etc. which would be in their immediate perceived interest of coping, fitting in etc.

Failure to address global warming?

Addressing global warming would impact the bottom lines of the capitalist class and thus be against their interest as a class of constant accumulation and expansion to among other things fight the falling rate of profit.

Nuclear proliferation?

Having nuclear weapons is directly in the self interest of states that wish to remain sovereign and not be destroyed by the western US lead empire as has been proved repeatedly.

political class.

Not a thing. Class is predicated on relation to the means of production mainly the ability/lack there of to privately own productive property and appropriate surplus value as capital.

So much for the democratic system you claimed existed. It’s almost like that is an inherently failing of Marxis

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. If the USSRs collapse was due to an inherent issue with Marxism why hasn't the PRC collapsed? Or is it possible the USSR faced challenges unique to their position and situation which lead to stagnation and eventually being pillaged as opposed to some inherent part of Marxism (which you seem incapable of pointing to beyond vague posting).

No country has ever gone beyond the developing stages of socialism because Marx was wrong.

If you just say this without elaborating on the how and in what way it's meaningless. Also Marxism wasn't jesus or some prophet Marxism doesn't end with Marx it continues with Lenin Stalin Mao Xi Cheng Xie Losurdo and more who continue to this day to study and develop.

In the nicest way possible you seem to very clearly have very little idea of what you're talking about and be way out of your depth leading you to do lots of vague posting.

[–] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

People largely partake as coping mechanisms or to fit in with groups etc. which would be in their immediate perceived interest of coping, fitting in etc.

They still know it is against their best interests.

Addressing global warming would impact the bottom lines of the capitalist class and thus be against their interest as a class of constant accumulation and expansion to among other things fight the falling rate of profit.

See previous answer.

Having nuclear weapons is directly in the self interest of states that wish to remain sovereign and not be destroyed by the western US lead empire as has been proved repeatedly.

It is against the best interest of humanity as a whole and we all know it.

Not a thing. Class is predicated on relation to the means of production mainly the ability/lack there of to privately own productive property and appropriate surplus value as capital.

It's a thing in reality. It's not a thing in Marxism which is another fault of the philosophy. The political class controls the capital that ostensibly belongs to the people. On reality they often wield the power of that capital for their own ends. This is true regardless of the economic system.

If the USSRs collapse was due to an inherent issue with Marxism why hasn't the PRC collapsed?

Because the PRC Isn't Marxist. It is a totalitarian dictatorship run for the benefit of the ruling class where the people are little more than serfs toiling for their local lords. The whole "communism" thing is an opiate similar to religion which encourages people to make personal sacrifices and not rise up.

If you just say this without elaborating on the how and in what way it's meaningless.

One of the central points of Marxism is that socialism is a transitional phase that leads to communism. This has never happened.

[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Because the PRC Isn’t Marxist. It is a totalitarian dictatorship run for the benefit of the ruling class where the people are little more than serfs toiling for their local lords. The whole “communism” thing is an opiate similar to religion which encourages people to make personal sacrifices and not rise up.

What is it with you whiteys calling me and my family serfs and your complete lack of understanding of my country. I wish I could understand how you could be so racist and dimwitted while speaking so confidently it's truly impressive.

One of the central points of Marxism is that socialism is a transitional phase that leads to communism. This has never happened.

Wow the transition has yet to complete so thus isn't real. Genuinely impressively dense.

You really are just coping hard and further proving you have no understanding of Marxism how people view their interests as a class or really anything outside your white liberal bubble.

[–] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

What is it with you whiteys calling me and my family serfs and your complete lack of understanding of my country.

Because my country allows free speech and I can speak the truth, unlike you.

[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Just showing how completely uninformed and racist you are. Politely go fuck yourself pig.

[–] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It is an objective fact that Chinese citizens have no right to free speech. Nothing I have said is racist. The fact that you have to resort to personal attacks just shows you know I am right.

[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It is an objective fact that Chinese citizens have no right to free speech

Yeah I guess my visits to the local offices with complaints and criticisms just never happened, I guess the 12345 hotline just doesn't exist please tell me more white saviour educate me on my country.

Nothing I have said is racist.

Nothing racist at all about you spreading orientalist nonsense calling Chinese people serfs and generally being a white saviour pig /s

The fact that you have to resort to personal attacks just shows you know I am right.

I'm not "resorting to personal attacks" I just see no need in being polite to chauvinist white saviour pigs who are comfortable with talking down on entire races and ethnicities with unmatched arrogance to accompany their less than 0 understanding.

[–] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 1 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

How about you compare Xi to Winnie the Pooh or tell me about what happened in Tienanmen square in 1989.

[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 1 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

How about you compare Xi to Winnie the Pooh

You mean the meme that was originally a pretty innocent picture of Obama and Xi as cartoon characters that western racists then weaponised I think I'll pass thanks (not really helping your claim that you're not racist not that you could anyway given it's clearly true that you're a sinophobe). I'm sure this will be some gotcha in your mind though. Do you think it was cool and good and funny when trump compared the Obama's to monkeys? You're doing the same thing. You should reflect on yourself pig.

in Tienanmen square in 1989.

In the square itself a peaceful protest peacefully dispersed. Around the city at the same time violent clashes between rioters and the military (acting as riot police). (But I'm sure you'll simply scream about how I'm brainwashed and a serf etc)

Honestly you clearly just want to call Chinese people like myself slurs and wish the worst upon us so why not just do it you massive coward. Afraid if you reveal your true feelings beyond the normalised level of white liberal sinophobia people might stop overlooking it?

[–] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 1 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

How many people did the Chinese people murder in Tienanmen square? What happened after this picture was taken?

[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 1 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago) (1 children)

How many people did the Chinese people murder in Tienanmen square?

What a disgusting and terrible framing. Unfortunately typical of chauvinist white saviour racists such as yourself.

What happened after this picture was taken?

He talked with the tank operator before passersby ushered him off

Every reply further exposing yourself as an ignorant racist no better than the republicans you (claim to) abhor.

[–] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

What a disgusting and terrible framing. Unfortunately typical of chauvinist white saviour racists such as yourself.

You are absolutely right. I mistyped. I meant to say "How many people did the Chinese government murder in Tienanmen square?" Care to answer? How many were killed?

He talked with the tank operator before passersby ushered him off

Where he was arrested and executed or imprisoned for 20+ years depending on who you talk to.

[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 1 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

Where he was arrested and executed or imprisoned for 20+ years depending on who you talk to.

Yeah if you talk to other white racist westerners who are only interested in spreading orientalist nonsense like yourself and confirming their racist bias. Continuing to show yourself as the closet republican racist you are.

murder

Continuing with the disgusting deceptive framing so you can confirm your own racist bias. Respectfully eat shit pig.

How many were killed?

Between 2 and 6 hundred including soldiers killed by rioters. (But I'm sure you'll just call me brainwashed for not saying something like the ridiculous unverified British number of 10,000 plus)

[–] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah if you talk to other white racist westerners who are only interested in spreading orientalist nonsense like yourself and confirming their racist bias.

This is what happens when the Chinese people don't have free speech. You can only repeat the lies your government tells you. The Tank Man picture is one of the most iconic photographs in the history of mankind. If he was free, you don't think some journalist at some point would have interviewed him? Seriously think about it.

Between 2 and 6 hundred including soldiers killed by rioters.

By the best estimates by historians not trying to push the CCP or western agendas, 14 soldiers were killed. Around 3,000 protestors occupied the square and held a 7 day hunger strike. They were protesting for economic reasons and for greater political representation. In response the government declared martial law, clearing the square with military force. Hundreds, perhaps thousands were shot, beaten to death, or crushed by armored vehicles. The dead were collected by soldiers, loaded onto trucks, and dumped in unmarked graves. Because of this, no exact number of dead can be known. Reliable estimates vary from several hundred to thousands of dead. We can debate all you want about the death toll, but the fact is that this is what happens when you try to speak freely in China. The CCP does not tolerate free speech. If you go against the party you disappear.

[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 1 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

This is what happens when the Chinese people don’t have free speech. You can only repeat the lies your government tells you. The Tank Man picture is one of the most iconic photographs in the history of mankind. If he was free, you don’t think some journalist at some point would have interviewed him? Seriously think about it.

Continuing to show your complete lack of understanding of events. "The Tank Man" is a single frame of a video paraded around the west for propaganda sneakily leaving out the fact he was stopping tanks leaving the area. His fame is entirely due to the fabricated story projected onto it by racists westerners such as yourself. Also how are you going to find 1 generic looking middle-aged Chinesean with no clear picture of his face from a grainy video? Seriously think about it. (You won't because then you might have to re-evaluate your racist chauvinist white saviour arrogance).

They were protesting for economic reasons and for greater political representation

Really highlighting you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. It wasn't one cohesive protest but tens of factions with their own agendas from hard-line maoists wanting to rollback reforms to students wanting more consumer goods and the end of the focus on supporting the peasantrybat the time.

I'm going to end this here. Trying to engage with an arrogant racist chauvinist who believes they can explain my country and it's history to me, who looks down on us as serfs and brainwashed peasants brings me no joy and certainly is an exercise in futility. I would wish you the best but I don't. I hope you eventually grow beyond your closet republican racism but I have severe doubts you have that capability.

[–] ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world 1 points 9 hours ago

The iconic Tank Man photo was taken by AP photographer Jeff Widener, but several photographers shot the event.

sneakily leaving out the fact he was stopping tanks leaving the area.

That is the entire point of the photo. He was stopping tanks being used to suppress protests.

It wasn't one cohesive protest but tens of factions with their own agendas from hard-line maoists wanting to rollback reforms to students wanting more consumer goods and the end of the focus on supporting the peasantrybat the time.

Doesn't really matter what position the protestors held. Their speech was suppressed by your government. You keep ignoring that.

I'm going to end this here.

Because you can't admit the truth. All you can do is keep playing the race card.