102
this post was submitted on 02 May 2024
102 points (91.8% liked)
News
23296 readers
5191 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
You seem to have trouble reading the text you're replying to. I'll paste if a few more times to make it easier for you.
The key text:
This is where the slight of hand happens. The problem with self determination is that we don't live in an empty world. My right to self determination can't impinge on your right to self determination. So this definition doesn't take into account competing political projects, agendas etc. This is about Israel, but notice they start with denying the Jewish people the right to self determination, then the example they give is claiming that the state of Israel is a racist endeavor. Now Judaism is conflated with political Zionism. These two things are not the same. And people have a right to believe that creating Israel is ok. But I have a right and you have a right to disagree that the formation of Israel was morally OK, politically acceptable. I can say that creating Israel came at the expense, of the Palestinian people. And that the creation of an ethnostate as such affords Israelis different rights whether or not you're Jewish. And I don't have to support the principal of an ethnostate. I dont belive in kurdish ethnostates, I don't believe in white nationlist ethnostates, I dont believe in Arab or Islamic ethnostates, and I don't believe in Jewish ethnostates.
I can say that. Unless we follow this definition.
for reference: the actual definition (if you can get it to load its getting the internet hug of death): https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism
and the bill: https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7921
That's actually not the correct bill, it's https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7921
fixed, thanks for that catch.
I read your text 3 times to follow it. Your explanation is working VERY hard working with VERY NARROW definitions with your introduction of some possible logical leaps to make the connections. Not that I think you're being disingenuous, but it looks like a weak argument. Yes, its possible but all the stars have to align for your reading to be true. Its just not likely.
That argument is build upon the foundation of the 11th bulletpoint example. You skipped (I believe unintentionally) over the HUGE carve out in the IHRA has before those examples. That text is this:
"Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Source is the May 2016 definition as citing in the legislation
To me this looks like it leaves the door fully open to criticize the State of Israel for its treatment of minority groups inside its borders and out.
I mean people are being accused of anti-semitism right now because they don't want the Israeli government to finish its extermination of the Palestinian people. Its not a stretch or leap because it is happening right now. Its just not considered hate speech today to criticize the Israeli government.
Also, I don't care to put things like this up to likely or unlikely given the current make up of the Supreme Court, which is where this would end up.
"People saying" doesn't carry the weight of law, and thank goodness. Thats the difference.
Where is someone being accused of criticizing Israel facing criminal charges right now? Thats a leap you're making. You're saying that because some rando is accusing someone criticizing Israel's attacks on the Palestinian people that they're facing criminal chargers, that just isn't happening anywhere I've seen. If you have evidence of that I'm interested in it.
Well let's put a flag in this and keep track of it. There is a clear train if conflating criticism of Israel with antisemitism with the mainstream media's coverage of the genocide, in what I hear coming out Congress critters mouths, the banning of toktok, and in all of the coverage I see regarding the student protests.
I expect this current crackdown if free speech to be explicitly based in the conflation of Israel with Judaism and I see the passage of this law as a direct step in that direction. I hope I'm seriously wrong, but I'm too cynical to out it aside as being explicitly for this purpose.
No one really knows how if this bull becomes a law, and we don't know how that will be enforced or adjudicated.
This is where I am too. I certainly don't claim to be a legal scholar, and those that are and those that adjudicate the law in practice will certainly shape it, and any constitutional challenges that follow.
The danger is that by introducing the threat of civil or even criminal charges against those who are accused of being antisemitic under this strict definition, it will have a chilling effect on freedom of speech and academic debate/inquiry.
You should read this opinion piece by the lead drafter of the IHRA definition itself, talking about the dangers of Trump's 2021 executive order (essentially what this latest bill is proposing to enforce by law). In it he warns about the definition being weaponized, saying: