this post was submitted on 11 Sep 2023
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[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 151 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Oof. I just want to say as a Jew that is constantly trying to dispel the myth of Jewish media conspiracies, Zuck really isn't doing us any favors here.

[–] Cyberwitch_7493@lemmy.dbzer0.com 60 points 1 year ago (4 children)

And not all Jewish people support Israel! I have to assume many understand what's going on and side with Palestine.

[–] aidan@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

What does "side with Palestine" mean? I side with the innocent people unjustly targeted in both Israel and Palestine, Israel has tolerated completely unjust treatment of Palestinians as well as done it as a state. But, groups like HAMAS also fire missiles at innocent civilians. Not to mention the many nations that have tried to unprovoked invade Israel. I'm not saying the Israeli government is innocent, it's not, but it's more complicated than just "siding with Palestine" being the right answer.

[–] Cyberwitch_7493@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)
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[–] aidan@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah I agree, I side with the innocent people, not necessarily all the semi-state entities in Palestine.

I can't blame them for wanting to fight back.

With attacking innocent civilians I can.

[–] Cyberwitch_7493@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hamas is less "attacking innocent civilians" and more doesn't know where civilians will be since they are a poor and oppressed retaliation force. And the Iron Dome is pretty much impenetrable because Israel shoots anything down in their airspace.

There is a very important difference between aiming generally at the oppressive force which includes civilians who continue to replace Palestinians who've lived there for their whole lives and targeting civilians, children included. Palestine does the former, Israel does the latter.

Look, I don't actually think I'm going to convince you of anything, but I hope it gives you pause at least.

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[–] lolcatnip@reddthat.com 8 points 1 year ago

I've been to Jewish gatherings where they had duplicates of some food products because half of them insisted on eating an Israeli brand and half of them refused to.

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes, I'm one of them. But again, that's not the audience I'm worried about. I'm not worried about what the mainstream thinks of Jews, or Jews think of Jews, I am worried about the feedback loop between far right influencers who promote conspiracy theories and the disaffected media consumers that they radicalize into violence. This kind of behavior is fuel for a very dangerous cycle.

I don't disagree with this. Far right radicalization is a huge problem.

[–] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 year ago

And not all the people that support Israel are Jewish nor are being paid by Jews to do so. Many understand that Hamas is a fascist regime and simply don't like fascism.

[–] db2@sopuli.xyz 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

He's and asshole regardless of his lineage, not because of it. Just so you know someone else out here has a little grounding in reality.

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thanks, though unfortunately it's not people like yourself (who understand such things) that worry me.

[–] mishimaenjoyer@kbin.social 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

i still wait for the day when i can criticize the state of israel and some of it's policies without getting branded as an antisemite.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And those of us Jews who don't support the state of Israel can't wait for the day we stop getting tied to it just because we're Jews. So there's problems both ways.

[–] DoomBot5@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I'm also waiting on the day where Israel isn't marked for extermination by multiple countries/terrorist organizations.

[–] RadicalCandour@startrek.website 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You can. I do. As a Jew and as someone who has family living in Jerusalem who all hate Bibi and what he stands for. Fuck Bibi and fuck the Knesset. And fuck Zuck too.

[–] mishimaenjoyer@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Im Austrian, so im basically forbidden to speak such heresies.

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago

If you're talking about Lemmy users, I think that day is already here. If you're talking about far right Zionists and ultraorthodox Jewish supremacists, then never. Between these two ends is where you find the mainstream gatekeepers of information like Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerburg, the Sulzburger family (who own the NYTimes), Jeffrey Bezos (who owns the Washington Post), etc.

I think the democratization of information is probably the most important step towards creating space to speak openly about human rights abuses anywhere, regardless of how powerful the people responsible are.

[–] tryptaminev@feddit.de 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, not so much a conspiracy, but Israel is employing social media propaganda, similiar to the infamous russian "troll factories". It was often very well noticeable on reddit, as sometimes two different accounts posted the exact same comment with pro Israeli talking points. Their main target is facebook and other large plattforms though.

[–] dsemy@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Any sources on any of that?

I often saw this parroted on Reddit, though without sources. What I didn’t see, is what you described as “very well noticeable” - and I used Reddit a lot.

Anytime I look up this stuff I can only find relevant information from obscure websites which don’t list any sources. This honestly does seem like a conspiracy.

[–] tryptaminev@feddit.de 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)
[–] dsemy@lemm.ee -5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

First and third links clearly state that these students are volunteers, and also a fairly small amount of them. (Also doesn’t seem like trolling necessarily)

Second link seems promising, but it offers almost no details, and its source is HaAretz, an Israeli publication which I personally don’t trust (also the source article is behind a paywall).

Last link is about a private company and seems only slightly related.

Not really strong evidence of Israel running “Russian troll factories”.

[–] tryptaminev@feddit.de 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Does it matter, whether the people are volunteers, paid or coerced? The fact stands that Israel is making a concerted effort to influence social media in their favor.

I find it a bit silly, that you want proper sources and then just say you don't trust a major Israeli newspaper without further explanation. Especially since the BBC deemed it credible as a source.

For the last link how is it "only slightly related?" It is a private company that is operating from Israel, run by ex-intelligence people, influencing elections world wide. This kind of things are not sold with a google add, but instead require extensive networks and contacts. It is implausible, that the company operated without the knowledge and approval of the Israeli government. Also the article states that the company was promoted on the website of the Israeli ministry of defense. Finally Israeli intelligence has proven competent in many activities around the globe, but in particular in regards to digital activities (stuxnet). There is no reason to belief that they wouldn't have picked up on one of their former employees running these kind of activities.

[–] dsemy@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

I doubt that Israel makes no effort to influence social media.

I just think the effort made isn’t very big, and with the presented evidence this seems true. I don’t feel like looking through them again to pinpoint where exactly but some of the articles you shared flat out admit Israel isn’t very good at shaping public opinion.

[–] stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Point 1 is kinda pedantic wouldn’t you say?

[–] dsemy@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No.

The original comment in this subthread claimed Israel was running troll factories similar to Russia’s, and on a scale large enough for it to be noticeable on Reddit, while also claiming Reddit isn’t even the main focus of those trolls.

Point 1 basically goes to show that while Israel does attempt some social media influence, it appears to be at a far smaller scale then originally claimed.

In all honesty, I’d be surprised if there are many developed countries which don’t do this to some extent, so in my eyes singling out Israel in this case seems a bit weird.

[–] stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Okay, I can see why that correction would maybe argue specifics against being 1:1 with Russian troll factories but even you just said the magic word: “similar to” which is obviously pretty loose, hence my distaste for the pedantics.

Overall, I agree though - most countries should be doing this just to counteract other countries doing this until we can start calling out ourselves for doing these things

change yourself, change the world and that

[–] wahming@monyet.cc 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

At this point it's a given that any nation state with an interest in PR has their online troll teams.

[–] stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

Assumptions assumptions

[–] BigNote@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago

As a guy wholly descended from the peoples of the British Isles, I have a similar feeling, only in my case, it really is true that my people have trashed the world for their personal benefit.

Granted that the Irish side of my family was never entirely on board.