this post was submitted on 24 Dec 2024
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Summary

President Joe Biden commuted the sentences of 37 federal death row inmates to life without parole, sparing all but three convicted of high-profile mass killings.

Biden framed the decision as a moral stance against federal executions, citing his legal background and belief in the dignity of human life.

Donald Trump criticized the move as senseless, vowing to reinstate the death penalty.

Reactions were mixed: some victims’ families condemned Biden, while others supported his decision. Human rights groups praised it as a significant step against capital punishment.

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[–] stevedice@sh.itjust.works 54 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (5 children)

While I'm overall glad about this, leaving 3 unpardoned inmates really corrupts the "moral stance against federal executions" justification and makes it seem like he is in favor of capital punishment but only for people he thinks deserve it. It also makes it seem like he believes it's his decision to decide who gets to live and that rubs me the wrong way.

[–] Nightwingdragon@lemmy.world 37 points 18 hours ago (5 children)

Even the most die-hard anti-death-penalty believer has their limits. It may take Hitler-level atrocities to get there, or maybe even worse. But everyone has their own line in the sand where even they will say "If there was ever a case in favor of the death penalty, this is that case." That line is in a completely different place for everybody.

It also makes it seem like he believes it’s his decision to decide who gets to live and that rubs me the wrong way.

Since the President has final pardon power, he actually does get to decide who gets to live. It's a power granted to him by the Constitution.

[–] greedytacothief@lemmy.world 22 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

Yep I'm anti-death penalty, the 3 that didn't get pardoned should probably just live the rest of their lives in prison. But I'm not going to shed any tears for them.

[–] Maggoty@lemmy.world 8 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

He didn't pardon the others, he commuted their sentences to life in prison. Of note, the 3 civilians left are terrorists who committed mass murder and were caught red handed. There are also 4 people on military death row who remain. One is also a mass murdering terrorist; one committed literal treason, attacking his own unit in the middle of the night overseas; one is a serial killer/rapist; and one took three trials over 4 decades to convict of a group murder.

They should probably commute his sentence too...

[–] greedytacothief@lemmy.world 3 points 5 hours ago

Yeah sorry that's what I meant, long day at work. no sympathy for the people on death row, either way they should not be allowed back into normal society.

[–] stevedice@sh.itjust.works 12 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

I understand that and, if you ask me, those 3 guys are pos. My problem is that he said he did it to take a moral stance against death penalty. You can't do that and go "except for these 3 cases".

[–] Nightwingdragon@lemmy.world 2 points 16 hours ago (2 children)

Right, but again.....everybody has that point where they say ".....except that case". You and Biden just disagree on where that line is. Even the Pope is eventually going to look at someone who committed some heinous crimes and say "Dude, even the Bible says that shit ain't cool....."

[–] stevedice@sh.itjust.works 7 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (1 children)

But not everybody is making a statement about morality. He's purportedly saying "capital punishment is bad and we should get rid of it". If you make exceptions, all you're saying is that you're in favor of keeping it around for really bad people, which is exactly where they are now.

[–] Nightwingdragon@lemmy.world 5 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

People make exceptions for things they believe in all the time. Religion is a prime example; show me any established religion, and I'll show you a few dozen beliefs associated with that religion that 99.9% of worshippers conveniently ignore. That doesn't mean they don't believe. That just means they have limits.

[–] dufkm@lemmy.world 3 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

show me any established religion, and I'll show you a few dozen beliefs associated with that religion that 99.9% of worshippers conveniently ignore

Zoroastrianism.

[–] Nightwingdragon@lemmy.world 5 points 10 hours ago

Zoroastrianism.

I'd be willing to bet that if you could even find someone practicing the religion, they're not praying several times a day in a fire temple.

[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 6 points 16 hours ago (2 children)

I'm not sure that's true. Some people legitimately stop at life in prison and always oppose the death penalty.

[–] OccamsRazer@lemmy.world 3 points 11 hours ago

I'm one of those. Capital punishment is obsolete in my opinion, since we no longer need to execute people to ensure that they don't present danger to the civilized population in the future.

[–] Nightwingdragon@lemmy.world 3 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

I'm confident. Granted, for some people that red line may require atrocities at or above Hitler levels. It may require atrocities that are comically unrealistic. But it's there. Put up someone who killed a proverbial busload of school children. If that isn't enough, two. "Yeah, I killed them all, and I raped them first, and I'll do the same again if I ever escape.". Someone's gonna say "Yeah, OK, stick the needle in his arm", just because they don't want to take the .000001% chance that he actually does escape.

An extreme example, yes, but I'm sure you get the idea. Everybody's got a breaking point.

[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 3 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Again, I don't know if that's true. People seem to have very strange absolute moral ideas sometimes.

[–] Nightwingdragon@lemmy.world 2 points 13 hours ago

That doesn't necessarily mean their beliefs are absolute. It just means that the red line needed to shake those believes has yet to be found.

[–] Determinism@kbin.earth -1 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

I have no such limits. Death, as a penalty, is always unjust because humans do not have free will. Every action, every thought, has some biological, or neurochemical, or material basis for it's happening. Inflicting any form of punishment or suffering on the qualia, the conscious experience of someone, for the illusion of choice we believe to have, is actually just inflicting suffering on innocent beings, because we have no choice.

Now, that's not too say I'm anti-violence. But I firmly believe that every piece of violence should be evaluated as if it was being done against an innocent person. Things like "guilt" or "they deserve it" should not be taken into the calculation when doing violence at all, only the benefits it has to the rest of society. If you are in the position to levy death as a punishment, I would rather just see them locked up for life.

[–] Nightwingdragon@lemmy.world 1 points 10 minutes ago

Death, as a penalty, is always unjust because humans do not have free will.

By this logic, all laws are unjust and humans aren't responsible for their actions.

[–] crapwittyname@lemm.ee -1 points 15 hours ago

Nope. The most die hard, anti death penalty believer has no limits and literally says "we do not have the right to take anyone's life, even if they are Hitler. In fact it would be better for society if we got to try to rehabilitate Hitler".
And I agree with them.

[–] Infynis@midwest.social -4 points 17 hours ago (2 children)

Even the most die-hard anti-death-penalty believer has their limits.

I'd love a source for this. Personally, I don't think we should be in the business of killing defenseless people in any context.

[–] droporain@lemmynsfw.com 2 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

What if they raped a baby to death right in front of you?

[–] Klear@sh.itjust.works 1 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Then I'd be a witness and therefore not qualified to pass judgement in their case. Conflict of interest.

[–] droporain@lemmynsfw.com 1 points 1 hour ago

Man fuck you, you are guilty as well. That's an instant removal from society. You might want to get therapy you are missing a soul.

[–] douglasg14b@lemmy.world 2 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (2 children)

Why do you need a source for a fundamental part of human nature? subjectivity

Google/Bing/DDG/Kagi the word...

[–] Determinism@kbin.earth 2 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Because people like to make claims about human nature that simply aren't generally true. Rather than recognizing the way complex circumstances can shape human feelings and behaviors, I frequently see people break it down into simple platitudes like "humans are lazy, greedy, etc", rather than recognizing complex realities like the way power erodes empathy.

[–] douglasg14b@lemmy.world 1 points 50 minutes ago* (last edited 49 minutes ago)

Isn't that my precise point but more words?

Humans are complex. Different people will have different values and we'll have different lines. This is fundamental to the individualistic nature of people.

Asking for a source on something ingrained in our everyday lives is almost a bad faith statement. That's like asking for a source on every piece of casual conversation just to shut it down.

Do you really need a source that tells you that different people have different values and weigh the problems around them differently?

[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 2 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

That means the opposite of what you're arguing for though

[–] douglasg14b@lemmy.world 2 points 46 minutes ago (1 children)

How does it? Subjectivity is defined by the same things that cause a variance in values and differences in weights placed on problems of others.

Which is exactly what I'm talking about. Humans are complex we all have differing values.

[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 1 points 17 minutes ago

Right, so some might have an absolute no-killing value.

[–] peoplebeproblems@midwest.social 7 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

The only thing that I can come to the conclusion is that two of the three are neo-nazis.

He could be sending a message, and that's what Trump is actually pissed about.

The Boston bomber I can't justify with that same line of thinking though.

Executions are barbaric, plus life in prison is far more cruel anyway.

[–] stevedice@sh.itjust.works 2 points 17 hours ago

He could be sending a message, and that's what Trump is actually pissed about.

That actually makes sense.

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 4 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

A world leader like the president is deciding on deaths every single day. You are right to think it's unsavory, but it certainly isn't unique to this pardoning.

[–] stevedice@sh.itjust.works 1 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

That may be true but singling out 3 people who are currently harmless and saying "you get to die" feels somehow different.

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 2 points 17 hours ago

He probably did that the day before and the day after.

[–] SwordInStone@lemmy.world 2 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago)

well, regardless whether he or anyone believes it or not, it quite literally was his decision to make

[–] dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works 2 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (1 children)

Devil's advocate: do the last 3 deserve it? Are they unsafe to other inmates and also not possible candidates for rehabilitation and release to society?

If yes... Welp.

[–] stevedice@sh.itjust.works 1 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

That's the point of taking a "moral stance against federal executions", though — nobody deserves it.

[–] dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works 1 points 15 hours ago

Yeah... Most people don't. Some do.