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Why would China do anything that helps us pick ourselves up and onto our feet? This is the goal they and Russia have been working towards for decades.
Nah-uh. No blaming China or Russia on this one. The United States did this squarely to themselves with the world pleading otherwise. They inserted their own head in the vice and started spinning the handle.
Sure, it aligns with the communist block's benefit, but the US really needs to be held accountable for its own idiocy on this one. Its the first step in recovery.
Neither Russia nor China are communist anymore. Russia is run by corrupt capitalists and has been since the 1980s, and the only thing Communist about China is the name of the totalitarian party that runs its government, which consists of a mix of state-funded and private capitalist enterprise.
China is very much a socialist economy
Really? The workers control the means of production? From here, it looks like state capitalism augmented by inconsistently regulated private enterprise (which sometimes leads to the entrepreneurs disappearing when they've neglected to grease the correct set of Party palms).
More than 60% of the Chinese economy is state owned and controlled, and as of I think a year ago they democratized Chinese company structures by mandating assemblies of employee representatives. The state having majority control and direction of the Chinese economy and market is the primary complaint of western trade partners, I don't know why people are always surprised by this.
I get that people really do not like the authoritarian aspects of the Chinese government, but state-controlled economies are pretty much the exact intent behind 'worker-controlled means of production' in marxism.
Socialism isn't just when the government does things. In between workers and the state needs to be a free and functioning democracy.
Yes, that famous part of Das Capital where marx coins the term "democracy of the proletariat"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat
Yup.
You act like that's different than a democracy, please define why.
A 'dictatorship of the proletariat' has elements of democracy, but it is explicitly not the same as a liberal democracy (nor is it really the same as a straight-out dictatorship). It's possible that some people prefer the Trotsky version of socialist states (one where multiple socialist parties might compete for power), but the ML single-party version is still very much within marxist theory.
The Chinese political system is democratic, just not in the same ways a western democracy might be. Western liberals seem to either not know (?) how the Chinese system works, or miss-understand what 'democracy' means as it pertains to Marx's 'dictatorship of the proletariat'. Either way, @explodicle@sh.itjust.works seems to be operating under a liberal-democratic understanding of democracy, but that's really not a given in marxist theory.
Then: it's obviously not democratic, that's why they call it a dictatorship
Now: well it's just not democratic in a way you liberals would understand
There's a reason why Marx coined a term referencing 'dictatorship' that included elements like 'direct democracy'. He sought to exclude the capital class entirely from it, and so referred to it as dictatorship 'of the working class'. Marx specifically saw liberal democracy as one designed for the borurgeoisie, and so using that as a basis of comparison for a socialist project is counter-productive
When liberals accuse China of being a 'dictatorship', they're pointing to the parts of China's democracy that differ from western democracy that specifically have to do with the inclusion of the capital class. Even a single-party state can be of the working-class and have direct-democracy, as is China's.
You're free to disapprove of China's system of government (I have scruples about it myself), you simply can't reasonably argue they are a dictatorship by any modern standards(at least, in no other way than in Marx's own use of the term).
Far from 'approving' of their system of governance, though, their state-controlled economy is definitionally socialist.
What "communist" block are you talking about? Is this 1989?
I'm starting to feel like this is a controversial opinion, but maybe the American people should be the ones holding their own government accountable? Interventionism is the worst way to fix a country and I very much doubt it even could be done for a country like America.
I am hoping the US splits apart, allowing the red states to destroy themselves. Conservatism is a cancer, and the condition would be easier to excise if it was a solid tumor.
Too many innocent people will be taken down as the cult self-destructs.
We can just show up in ICE uniforms and take them to the free state.
One way or another, the cult will murder people just because, and will continue to do so until the cult is extinguished. It is better to hasten that by being willing to oppose the regime. Many people are being trafficked by ICE.
Difficult to argue against, except America is doing this too us as well, and we don't get a vote.
All the more reason to not do anything about it. Let America implode and their interventionist power also takes a hit.
Trump provided China an excellent excuse to start a trade war and look like the heroes while doing it. This is absolutely Trump's fault, but China has no reason to not take full advantage of it.
TBF we already started it ourselves
That's true. The US has been interfering in other country's domestic affairs for decades. Organising the odd coup, overthrowing elected leaders. Suddenly people are shocked to learn that it can work both ways.
A country with strong democratic institutions are pretty resilient to these tactics. You might not trust the politicians, but you trust the officials, the military and the courts.
It seems that the US has dismantled trust in these institutions for a long time. It has let corporations run the show. So Russia and China have an easier task.
It's been fucking wild as a resident of a non-us country seeing some of the commentary coming up. We must radical empathy! How dare other countries take advantage of X Y or Z? The shoe is on the other foot, and by GOD is it a problem if anyone but the US starts doing what the US has been doing to everyone else on the planet my entire freakin' life
We all know they're propaganda riddled exceptionalists but goddaaaamn. Need to learn to accept cause, effect and consequence
Oh so we're denying that Russia and China led disinformation campaigns squared solely at disrupting American politics for decades? Are we also ignoring the Murdochs from Australia?
Just wanted to get that straight before I started saying whatever the fuck I want.
The embarrassing thing is a lot of that disinformation was shared on social media networks that were created in the US.
Creating the tool that your enemy uses effectively against you is not a good look.
i believe russia be to blame, it kinda obvious weakeaning america helps putin, it has been his goal for 10years,.
Trump was getting fat on Russian mob money since the 1980s, probably as a reward for him ratting out the Italian mob to Giuliani, which created expansion opportunities for the Bratva.
putin ramped up his misinformation, conveniently around the time he was elected , '16-17 on reddit we saw significant purges for the very first time, and peoples sensitivites as massively increased. my very first bans of an og account around that time.
Mate, the Murdoch's? America's lap dog newspaper moguls.
They're you're mouth piece of shit trying to force Australia to be more like you sepppos
Rupert Murdoch was born in Australia, what even are you talking about?
And bailed his citizanship the instant the US proved more likely to give him the easily manipulated press he wanted
I'm saying that Murdoch doesn't work for Australians and our interests. He's a lapdog of the US
Murdoch has never served the interest of any state. He has relentlessly pursued his agenda, which is to undermine the centrist quasi-democracies in English-speaking countries and to promote nationalist authoritarianism.
russia maybe, because putins directing trump to do this, more or less it helps russia in the long run.
"Never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake."