There’s nothing wrong with that particular demographic or anything, but it doesn’t feel like a win to me if the entire fediverse is just one big monoculture.

I wonder what it is that is keeping more diverse users away? Is picking a server/federation too complicated? Or is it that they don’t see any content that they like?

Thoughts?

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments

[–] erasebegin@lemmy.fmhy.ml 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

I'm new here, and new to federated applications (and fit OP's description perfectly). This federated stuff is going to remain niche unless somebody figures out a way to make it approachable.

Reddit first time:

> open app
> choose some things I like
> see all the things

Lemmy first time:

> open app
> ?????
> google how to use it
> choose a... server? 
> ?????

[–] Uncrasimatic@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

I called this a few weeks ago on reddit and people weren't impressed with my negativity.

I'm sorry, but you can't start a website with:

Lemmy is a selfhosted social link aggregation and discussion platform.

And expect 95% of people to do anything other than close the window.

[–] wintermutehal@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It’s my very first day. There was a small learning curve, but then I just found memmy and it’s back to a normal Reddit like experience for me. Really not too hard at all.

[–] RaoulDook@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This perfectly illustrates the problem with the Internet as a whole in the age of smartphones.

Your idea of the "first step" is always "open app" but the Internet is not apps. The Internet is servers, and a web browser is the client app for most of it.

Since I know how to use the Internet, it was simple AF to get a Lemmy account going. I went to https://lemmy.world and signed up. Now I'm on Lemmy.

If all you know of the Internet is "open app" on your phone, you have a lot more to learn about the Internet as a whole.

[–] aceshigh@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

that's a common problem. kids don't know how to use computers because they're so used to using apps.

[–] tatertime@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yep, that is literally me. I am not particularly techy or whatever and I came here because RiF shut down and the maker said they would be on lemmy.world. i had no idea what that meant but i made it here.

Much googling was involved and after i made like 4 accounts on different instances, bumbled around, settled down and learned to subscribe to stuff, i subbed to communities specifically about the fediverse and finding new communities. I also tried like 3 different apps and aettled on Liftoff so far.

I still havent figured out how to reliably see mastodon or kbin stuff or if i even want to.

I can see how most people wouldn't bother and have no idea why any of this even matters. I still find reddit much easier to use (and important for ongoing world events like the war in ukraine, where it isnt about what we can aggregate but where posters from that conflict put their content originally, a huge amount gets posted directly to reddit and they dont have time to sit around debating the finer points of internet usage), but philisophically i understand why the fediverse is important.

Also learning sbout the concept of defederation (as it regarded Beehaw) was a brainmelter and i felt like i was missing out on "content" be ause of how big it was. My other issue was around not undersranding who runs all these instances and quite frankly having no reason to trust they wouldnt do some crazy stuff themselves.

[–] Freesoftwareenjoyer@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

What if we can't make it more approachable? Should we forever rely on corporations and their unethical platforms to be able to communicate? Just because people aren't willing to learn a few very basic things?

This is not a problem with the technology, but with people.

[–] loics2@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This is not a problem with people, but with UX design.

We don't need a corporation to have usable interfaces. Right now, if you visit join-lemmy.org, the main focus is for people wanting to host an instance, which is only a small part of the advanced user base. The common user won't care about the fact Lemmy is made with rust or that there's a docker image.

I don't think it's only an issue with Lemmy, lots of open-source projects lack user-friendliness and onboarding.

[–] Freesoftwareenjoyer@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes, Lemmy's UI is very bad. It would be pretty easy to improve it, if only developers understood this. But I think the part that new users complain about the most is federation. At least I've seen many posts and comments saying that it's too confusing.

[–] loics2@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't think it's necessarily the job of the developers, the main issue IMO is that there's not enough involvement from other specialists such as designers in open-source communities.

[–] Freesoftwareenjoyer@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sometimes I try to help, but unfortunately not everyone is willing to listen. I've noticed there are multiple reasons why UI might be bad in a Free Software project:

developers are not UI experts and they don't know better
developers are not UI experts and they don't listen to experts or UI is not their priority
the UI code is so bad that changing it would require rewriting most of the application and nobody has the time to do that, so there is nothing that can be done (this probably doesn't happen in web apps)

I believe in Lemmy's case it's mostly the 2nd point.

[–] NathanUp@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

IDK about Lemmy devs, but point 2 is so, so common. Making a point about UX or accessibility in 99% of FLOSS project discussion spaces is incredibly stressful; you can have user research, industry best practice, and years of experience on your side, but you're inevitably met with dismissal and argument. Devs often treat designers as though they're a bunch of artsy crystal-healing crusties, despite the fact that good UX people base their work on actual research and theory grounded in human behavior and psychology. (Calling use of basic design principles "eye candy" for example) Of course, if a dev makes a decision on technical grounds, it must be treated as scripture as far as any remaining designers on the project are concerned. It's no wonder so many FLOSS projects have abominable UX.

[–] IrrationalAndroid@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I agree so much. I feel like your typical user does not need to know 1% of all that. Hell, I don't even think that they need to know much about the whole instances shebang. Scroll through a feed, see a bunch of users from various federated instances say things, the end. The fediverse aspect is something that could be relegated to a help section or something along these lines. Complexity scares people away.

I seriously wish that Lemmy and the Fediverse in general would boom in popularity because this kind of "free" social media is what people deserve, but I just can't see it happening with how things are now.

[–] Freesoftwareenjoyer@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

People need to know what an instance is. They need to know what defederating means too. They also need to know why the Fediverse is better than centralized alternatives, because otherwise they won't care.

[–] Redtitwhore@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Good points. I do think the default community filter should be All instead of Local though.

[–] IrrationalAndroid@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Can I ask you to educate me on why people need to know? I'm struggling to see your point. Surely people will benefit in some way from knowing how the Fediverse works under the hood, but not everyone needs to know, and as you can see this heavy emphasis on the Fediverse's inner workings is, instead, turning people away.

People are just very used to having things magically work, and I think that it's very natural for them to not want to deal with things that they need to make work. Many people never knew how Twitter or Reddit works under the hood, many never cared, but in the Fediverse it's suddenly brought up as a necessary thing. And I just can't see how that's necessary thing to use such a tool. All I'm saying is that UX-wise, many apps in the Fediverse could feel more seamless.

I hear you on the Fediverse being better in many many cases, but I also feel like many of the Fediverse's features are all but marketable to the average person. Add in the fact that people feel like there is a learning curve, and what you get is that people lose interest very fast.

[–] Freesoftwareenjoyer@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

In order to be able to choose an instance or change it in the future, a user needs to know what it is first. Maybe we could choose it for them randomly (would that be ethical?), but they still need to know where their account is hosted. If their instance gets defederaded by other instances, then they also need to know what defederation is and how it affects them. Those are just basics needed to fully use the Fediverse and the freedoms it gives you. I'm not saying that people should know exactly what ActivityPub protocol is and how it works. But they need to know the basics about how federation works. This is nothing complicated, so I don't think I'm asking for much.

In centralized platforms users don't have freedom, so they don't have to worry about any of this. If they aren't willing to learn a few basic things in order to have freedom, then there is nothing we can do for them. We can and should try to educate them, but many people don't see a problem with being abused by corporations. This is not a new problem in software. It has existed for at least 30 years since the Free Software movement was created.

Lemmy has many UI and UX problems and they certainly need to be fixed. But it's possible that decentralized platforms will always be more complicated to use than centralized ones. If people aren't willing to learn how to use it, that's a problem with them, not with this technology.

[–] dulcinea@lemmy.today 1 points 5 months ago

A few basic things? What are you talking about? Gen-Z doesn't even know how to use a computer. We're fucked!