this post was submitted on 16 Oct 2023
1289 points (98.5% liked)

News

23320 readers
3378 users here now

Welcome to the News community!

Rules:

1. Be civil


Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.


2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.


Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.


3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.


Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.


4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.


Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.


5. Only recent news is allowed.


Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.


6. All posts must be news articles.


No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.


7. No duplicate posts.


If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.


8. Misinformation is prohibited.


Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.


9. No link shorteners.


The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.


10. Don't copy entire article in your post body


For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] CeeBee@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Hired laborers and indentured servants whom you could beat and abuse, and had no freedom of their own. Hmm, I wonder if there's a word for that...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_slavery

"Broadly, the Biblical and Talmudic laws tended to consider slavery a form of contract between persons, theoretically reducible to voluntary slavery, unlike chattel slavery, where the enslaved person is legally rendered the personal property (chattel) of the slave owner."

"Ancient Israelite society allowed slavery; however, total domination of one human being by another was not permitted.[16][17] Rather, slavery in antiquity among the Israelites was closer to what would later be called indentured servitude.[15] Slaves were seen as an essential part of a Hebrew household.[18] In fact, there were cases in which, from a slave's point of view, the stability of servitude under a family in which the slave was well-treated would have been preferable to economic freedom."

"Although not prohibited, Jewish ownership of non-Jewish slaves was constrained by Rabbinic authorities since non-Jewish slaves were to be offered conversion to Judaism during their first 12-months term as slaves. If accepted, the slaves were to become Jews, hence redeemed immediately. If rejected, the slaves were to be sold to non-Jewish owners. Accordingly, the Jewish law produced a constant stream of Jewish converts with previous slave experience. Additionally, Jews were required to redeem Jewish slaves from non-Jewish owners, making them a privileged enslavement item, albeit temporary. The combination has made Jews less likely to participate in enslavement and slave trade."

"The Torah forbids the return of runaway slaves who escape from their foreign land and their bondage and arrive in the Land of Israel. Furthermore, the Torah demands that such former slaves be treated equally to any other resident alien."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude

"Indentured servitude is a form of labor in which a person is contracted to work without salary for a specific number of years. The contract, called an "indenture", may be entered "voluntarily" for purported eventual compensation or debt repayment, or it may be imposed "involuntarily" as a judicial punishment. "

Yes, there's a lot more in that Wikipedia page, but Jewish history expands well past the Bible and the 1st century. I'm just focusing on the Biblical period.

Slavery pre-American colonial settlement is far more nuanced than people realize. Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast goes into immense detail in the Humane Resources episode (and that's "humans as resources" in the title).

You can give all the context you want, that’s sexism, plain and simple.

Is it though? Because 1 Corinthians says "For just as the woman is from the man, so also the man is through the woman; but all things are from God.” Which is to say neither men or women are above the other, they are equal to God.

A chain of command you cannot change, that is not based on knowledge or experience, but on what’s between your legs.

True, but an employee at a large company cannot become the CEO (yes, I know it's "technically" possible, but how often does that happen?). I know you'll disagree on this, and that's fine, we can disagree. But my position is that this "order" isn't oppressive in any way. There's no privilege or power in the role (there isn't supposed to be, but we know that it has been abused countless times). It's only meant to be a role to be assign leadership to a clearly defined person in the family. A "leader" doesn't control the people they are leading, they simply the person that gives guidance for the group as a whole. Anyways, we're going to disagree on this.

Or not so clever, I guess.

We have this wonderful new technology called google. Feel free to use it.

I knew which Corinthians was being referenced. I was pointing out that OP keeps referencing scriptures without giving all the details. Which matters because they've been touting their expertise and deep knowledge in the topic.

Forcing women to shave their heads sure sounds like dominating to me…

Men aren’t forced to shave their hair, and using your analogy, they are always higheron the chain of command than women.

Men (in ancient Israel) are required to do other things, like cut the tip of their genitals off.

Taking a single example is cherry-picking. There are many things that were required of both men and women, and people in all different stations.

Except CEOs aren’t allowed to beat up employees, and employees are free to leave.

Because in modern days we have extensive and well established legal codes and policing infrastructures. Back in the Bible on a farm being worked by many people, the closest settlement would have been many hours, if not days away. There was no local police station, no 911 or emergency services. Land owners were thus expected to be the ones enforcing the law on their land. We also have extensive and meticulous laws covering all kinds of topics, scenarios, and conditions that are recorded in explicit detail. Back then most people didn't read, and if they did they definitely didn't have any access to a copy of the law. As such laws were often simple and not complex so that the average person could grasp and remember them.

That being said, slavery in the Bible isn't what you think it is (as I mentioned earlier in my comment). A slave would only receive such punishment if they did something extremely heinous, like murder someone.

Edit: formatting, clarification

[–] SuddenlyBlowGreen@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"Broadly, the Biblical... equally to any other resident alien."*

What you forgot you mention about the wikipedia page, is that these are not facts, but quotes from a religious scholar.

A religious scholar, who would greatly benefit from people thinking of positively of his religion.

If google puts it on their wikipedia page that them avoiding hundreds of millions in taxes is in context a really good thing, would you believe them?

Slavery pre-American colonial settlement is far more nuanced than people realize.

I don't even need to respond to it, it just speaks for itself.

Is it though?

Yes. It's literally "All of you are equal, some are just more equal than others".

Which is to say neither men or women are above the other, they are equal to God.

Ah, I see. "Seperate but equal".

True, but an employee at a large company cannot become the CEO (yes, I know it's "technically" possible, but how often does that happen?).

It is possible, and it does happen.

In fact, every employee can start their own company and become its CEO.

A more apt analogy would be, a company where white people can become managers and C-suite, but black people cannot.

Would you support this?

That being said, slavery in the Bible isn't what you think it is (as I mentioned earlier in my comment). A slave would only receive such punishment if they did something extremely heinous, like murder someone.

"The condition in which one person is owned as property by another and is under the owner's control, especially in involuntary servitude."

Yep, that fits.

I'll never understand how people like you can sink to such levels, defending slavery.

And again, the rampant homophobia.

[–] CeeBee@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A religious scholar, who would greatly benefit from people thinking of positively of his religion.

This assumes all religious scholars have a nefarious agenda. I don't doubt some or many do, but no more so than the final population average. There are many who genuinely want to help others and believe in teaching and sharing peace.

I don't even need to respond to it, it just speaks for itself.

Because you think "slavery" means the same thing across all time. That level of willful ignorance speaks for itself also.

Yes. It's literally "All of you are equal, some are just more equal than others

No, it's all are equal but not everyone can have the same job and responsibilities. Not everyone can be the owner of a company (unless you're WestJet).

Ah, I see. "Seperate but equal".

Just "equal".

In fact, every employee can start their own company and become its CEO.

I did specify "large corporation" in my example. Thanks for ignoring that.

Yep, that fits.

Involuntary servitude under the law (back in the era we're talking about) had clear definitions. It was often invoked to collect a debt and could only be held until the debt was paid off, not longer. Captured non-Hebrew enemies were also sometimes put under involuntary servitude. But they were required to either convert, at which point they would be freed. Or else sold off to a non-Hebrew.

I'll never understand how people like you can sink to such levels, defending slavery.

And I'll never understand how people can have such reductionist ways of thinking. "Slavery", as it's used today, is technically "chattel slavery", which is different. They have similar letters in English, but are not the same thing. Some translations even use different terms because the modern English word "slavery" has a different meaning. Indentured and voluntary servitude were commonplace back then. Today it isn't. Although the relationship between an employee and employer share many of the same definitions. "Slaves" under voluntary servitude were even able to "seek a new master". Basically find a new job. Such cruelty.

[–] SuddenlyBlowGreen@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

This assumes all religious scholars have a nefarious agenda. I don't doubt some or many do, but no more so than the final population average. There are many who genuinely want to help others and believe in teaching and sharing peace.

Well, this one clearly does, as he's trying to whitewash slavery to make his religion look better. Seems pretty nefarious to me.

Because you think "slavery" means the same thing across all time

They are ot free to leave, and can be abused by their masters at will. It's close enough.

No, it's all are equal but not everyone can have the same job and responsibilities.

Except the high jobs and high responsiblilities are only available to men.

You know your arguments about this sound familiar to those used by pro-segregationits. I would say something about strange bedfellows, but since you're agruing for thr same thing, I guess it's not so strange.

Involuntary servitude

Involuntary servitude

Of course, you forget to mention how none of this forgiveness applies to women, who weren't freed after six years/the debt being paid off, and could instead be forcibly taken as a wife.

And of course slaves taken from neighbouring countries weren't to be returned or freed, they were slaves for life.

"Slaves" under voluntary servitude were even able to "seek a new master". Basically find a new job.

Voluntary servitude? Maybe.

Were they able to get a new job under involuntary servitude? No. So slavery.

But indentured servitude with physical abuse is still slavery, and the bible supports it. No way around it.

There's a saying that when democracy doesn't favour conservatives, they don't turn from conservatism, they'll turn on democracy. As it turns out it also applies to christans: when christians find out the bible supports slavery, they don't turn of the bible, instead they'll start saying slavery was actually good. And lo and behold...

And of course the rampant homophobia.