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Israel and Hamas reach tentative U.S.-brokered deal to pause conflict, free dozens of hostages
(www.washingtonpost.com)
this post was submitted on 19 Nov 2023
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Because trump totally would have gotten that ceasefire
don't shame people into voting for shit, fix your bad candidate problem. bad candidates scare off swing voters in the suburbs worse than progressive candidates
If you're given the option to lessen the chance of the greatest evil happening by merely pushing a button, and you think "naah I'm not gunna," then you absolutely should feel shame. If your inaction supports the greater evil coming to power, absolutely shame on you.
I, for one, accept this fact alongside the ugly truth that Biden is alienating a non-negligible amount of voters which puts into question his chance of winning the needed 1 or 2 of the 5 undecided swing states for an EC victory. I'm at a loss for what to do about the situation, seems like there isn't a clear solution.
Exactly. I don't even have any argument for people who dislike Biden, and I totally sympathize with people who want a different candidate.
But in the end of the day, either A or B will win this election, and anything other than a vote for A mathematically works out to support for B. So unless you actually want Trump to win, the _only _reasonable choice is to vote for Biden.
But how do we tell that to people who will decide not to vote or who will vote third party?
I don't know. I've it out rationally several times to people who then get angry and emotional about it. These purity test commenters are the same way. Their position isn't based on reason, and it often seems like showing reasoning to them won't change their mind. But fighting certainly won't help either.
I think the thing you gotta do is just remain as non-confrontational as possible and explain the game theory/the math behind why it works. And let them know it's not a condemnation of their dislike of the system, or of Biden, or of whatever. You can hate something and still vote for it, and that can still be the best choice too. Just don't fall for the bait from those commenters who think their being cute by picking fights or turning it personal. Keep it rational. Maybe the person you're talking to won't change their mind, but a 3rd person who reads the conversation later on might see how you're being rational and making points while the other guy is just being stubborn, argumentative, and irrational.
Unfortunately, support for Israel is also widespread in the US, so in either case, Biden loses votes. From a domestic and strategic political perspective, there are no right answers.
I think support for Israel among his actual constituents is overstated, and would also sharply decline in the case of the president and senate condemning and punishing Israel for their crimes, but I can't say anything with certainty these days.
Surely this can be spun as saving Israeli lives for those people? Sure, it's going to save way more Palestinians, but you'd think it can be marketed as "I brokered the deal that saved the Israeli hostages"
One hopes.
So trump is a better candidate in your eyes?
Because that is who you are effectively voting for if you don't vote Biden next year
If you don't donate to Biden you're effectively donating to Trump.
People should be absolutely shamed for voting for Trump. You have to be absolutely fucking retarded to think he's a better option after the past 8 years.
I will not vote for genocide. That's my red line. If you vote for the lesser of two genocides you're still voting for genocide.
If Biden actually manages to stop Israel from continuing its genocide he has my vote! That's all it would take and that is not a high bar.
So you vote for nothing and the worst of the two gets in anyway. The family who would've otherwise lived in the 'lesser genocide' thanks you. In what realm does that make sense?
These "red line" commenters are so blinded by their own purity tests that they can't see they're actually supporting the greater genocide. Every thread here on lemmy is full of them, and they all make the same case, but they refuse to acknowledge the actual reality, which is that not voting for the one person who has an actual chance to beat Trump, they're actually supporting him. Not as much as they would if they actually voted for him, but still significantly.
If Trump wins by a narrow margin, it will be because of these red-liners who valued their own purity over the lives of others.
By not donating to Biden you are supporting Trump.
In a way, there's an argument to be made there. If you're not doing everything you can to help defeat evil, then you are allowing that evil some amount of support.
On the other hand, your vote is black and white. By not voting for the one person who has an actual chance to beat Trump, your actions are inarguably are supporting Trump.
Your money is black and white too. By not donating to the one person that has an actual chance to beat Trump, your actions are unarguably supporting Trump. Similarly! By not volunteering your time to the one person that has an actual chance to beat Trump...
Zero. Difference.
You could argue he’s donating his time right now trying to sway people in a public forum and getting them to think I support for his candidate of the lesser of two evils.
No, he's posting on an anonymous internet thread. That's literally nothing. Shouting into the void.
You could argue that, but wouldn't it also apply to your own comments?
Yes? I'm not going to pretend this is a good use of my time lol
I literally just agreed with you in my previous post. So I guess you agree now, and you've realized that the only reasonable choice is to vote for Biden.
I'm voting downticket for Democrats so they hinder Trump.
I won't vote for genocide. I'd rather kill myself.
Trump literally led a violent insurrection to stay in power.
Vote for local government and representatives. But they aren't going to be able to do much when the Nazis come marching again
My family is Palestinian. Don't use my people as an excuse to not vote biden. We are all voting for him because we understand how much worse Trump will be. Understand that if Trump wins and you didn't vote biden (the only other viable candidate) you are just as responsible for what he does as the people who voted for him
If you don't do the bare minimum to stop the worst possible outcome (ticking a small fucking box on election day) then you are complicit in the outcome.
Trump is already talking about basically ethnically cleansing the us in the context of mass deportation of immigrants and other parts of his "platform".
It is less "voting for the lesser of two genocides". It is preventing the ones you can.
And by threatening to withhold my vote I'm trying to prevent further genocide in Gaza. We've already forced Biden this far, we can force him farther if he realizes it could cost him the election.
So, no ceasefire, no votes.
By voting blue-no-matter-who, you're just making Biden worse.
If Biden doesn’t get the ceasefire, you won’t vote for him
But who would you vote for, then?
No other candidates, Democrat or Republican, that run again Biden will be able to get the ceasefire, either - come time to vote.
So….you won’t vote at all?
I'll vote downticket for Democrats and write Hillary Clinton in to the Presidential spot.
Democrats in the House and Senate would rein in Trump and it's still Her turn!!!
Not against her as a candidate, but you know writing her in will just waste a vote.
There’s also no promise that if she were in the potus seat right now that she could definitively broker a ceasefire. We don’t know how any of it would work with anyone else.
Let’s give Biden a chance.
(Btw im all for voting for another deserving candidate who runs against him on the Democratic ticket)
I'm giving Biden a chance right now. He has almost an entire fucking year to pull this off.
The pressure is already adding up, you can't say that Democrats haven't budged on this issue. It's working.
Keep up the pressure. No ceasefire, no votes.
Clinton. You'd vote for Clinton in this theoretical scenario as to who would get your vote in negotiating a ceasefire as president during this crisis.
The Hillary Clinton who has expressly opposed a ceasefire during this very crisis.
That Clinton.
Problem?
No, actually, this resolves the ongoing question I had as to whether you were just ignorant, or expressly an enemy of democracy LARPing as a Very Concerned Citizen.
No ceasefire, no votes.
If you're so worried about Biden losing then maybe you should be pressuring him to call for a ceasefire?
Ah so the solution is to let the person who will make it worse and officially start the trans genocide within the US win. You're so smart. Your intelligence eclipses everyone else's here. If you can't stop 1 genocide let's just let 2 happen while the other gets worse. Genius. Absolutely genius.
don't let people shame you into supporting evil
You should feel shame if your inaction supports the greatest evil.
I feel shame for being American and not laying down my life to oppose this demon shithole.
I mean, you do you. But dying also won't help stop Trump.
Voting on the other hand....
Good. Feel shame. Put up or shut up.
I won't be young forever. Hell I'm not sure if I'm even still young now.
Good idea. Thanks for your support. I hope you join me.
I won't, because I'm not under the impression that armed conflict that kills millions and obliterates the country economically and socially for decades (the 'best' realistic scenario) is better than the status quo. Of course, more likely than that is that 'laying down' your life to oppose the US will just result in you laying down your life and nothing else happening, because the millions of people living here are also not keen on overthrowing the government for [checks notes] being allies with bad countries.