this post was submitted on 19 Nov 2023
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First police investigation of Supernova festival also found Israeli forces responsible for some deaths.

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[–] Syldon@feddit.uk -1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Those civilians would not have died if Hamas had not attacked civilian areas. The whole reason there were any casualties is because Hamas attacked.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And justifies the IDF bombing their own citizens because...?

Hamas can't be blamed for the fact that they attacked. Fighting an occupier is allowed by international law, and if that wasn't enough Israel's blockade of Gaza is an act of war. This means that starting 1967, and even more so since 2005, any and all military action within the bounds of international law is fair game. They can be blamed for their conduct during the attack. We know civilians were killed by Hamas, and they absolutely should be condemned for that. However, the specifics, including how many of the casualties were civilians vs IDF, how many were killed by the Hamas and how many were killed by the IDF, how many were caught up in the crossfire, those are still in fog of war territory.

[–] Syldon@feddit.uk -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Fighting an occupier is allowed by international law,

Slaughtering civilians is not acceptable under international law. The rest is just propaganda until you can produce data to back it up. Just stating that Israel committed blue on blue attacks is not really good enough. Even then the scale of the attacks by Hamas will have sent Israeli defence systems into turmoil. Getting confused and hitting a wrong target is pathetic, it is not a criminal offence if it is done in a national defence situation.

[–] stopthatgirl7@kbin.social 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Slaughtering civilians is not acceptable under international law.

Please tell that to Israel, since they’re doing an awful lot of that.

[–] S_204@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Unfortunately you're not a civilian if you're dressed like one but holding an RPG.

I'm sure you've seen the video of the 'medic', who stripped the rifle from the wounded man instead of helping him and handed it to another 'civilian' who was firing on something, presumably IDF forces.

Just like the hospital losing protection once Hamas sets up in it, we're seeing the weaponization of international laws and the complete disregard for the rules of war here and it's fucking tragic.

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

What video can you link it

[–] avater@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Sadly this is how an this war is fought. The Hamas is no regular army, they are terrorists who can hide among civilians, but this also gives no justification for clear attacks on civilians. Israel is in a very delicate and complicated situation...

[–] Syldon@feddit.uk -4 points 1 year ago

yes I agree, and I sincerely there is an account after this.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I'm not saying they're allowed to slaughter civilians. I'm saying while we do know civilians were murdered by Hamas, and we absolutely should condemn that, we don't know if civilians were wholesale slaughtered or not (alternatively, whether Hamas soldiers had a policy of killing unarmed civilians or not). When you include the fact that the Israeli casualties include IDF personnel and civilians the IDF killed (not accidentally, see this for more details), we need to know at least the approximate number of those people before we can assign blame. This is why I said we're in fog of war territory.

"Hamas attacked so all casualties are their responsibility" doesn't check out, which is why we need to wait for the details (which still haven't come out).

[–] Syldon@feddit.uk -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They created that fog of war though. Israelis would not have made any blue on blue attacks without the attack happening. We could argue all day if Hamas is directly or indirectly to blame for some of the killings, but none of them would have happened at all without the attack. It is not as if the Israelis recognised Hamas was attacking and they used it as an opportunity to kill a few more of their own is it?

[–] bradorsomething@ttrpg.network 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Now do a backflip and say Hamas is responsible for the IDF doing the same actions in Palestine.

[–] Syldon@feddit.uk 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That is not the same as stating what Hamas has done is not really as bad as it was because X y or Z.

Israel has abused the situation without a doubt. Israel has ran apartheid policies for many years. Israel has been killing Palestinians and evicting them over a very long period. None of this excuses what Hamas did. I do not have a favourable opinion of either group tbf.

[–] NightAuthor@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

It’s both sides that are the problem, right?

[–] Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The reason Hamas attacked is that Israel is trying to genocide palestine.

[–] Syldon@feddit.uk 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It is certainly part of the issue. Other factors you cannot ignore are the influence of Iran and Russia with the intent of adding financial pressure on the US. As well as the plan to destabilise the push Netanyahu from within Israel is under for his extreme views. This is why I say you cannot push all the blame on the Palestinians. Another side is that Hamas and Hezbollah have a very public agenda to murder all Jews in Israel. This leaves Israel with an open door too defend itself. And where there is war there is abuse.

[–] Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Israel literally is trying to murder all Gazans, so whatever Hamas may or may not desire, it's not actually relevant. Reality is the thing that counts.

[–] Syldon@feddit.uk 1 points 1 year ago

Not strictly true when the far right in Israel are using the Rhetoric from Hamas and Hezbollah to give credit to their reasoning. What better reason to be a nasty bastard towards a group than knowing they also want to kill you. You cannot try to push that these groups are not your enemy. They even use this as an excuse to intimidate and thieve from the West Bank, who have a government that wants to resolve the problems and push Israel out of its land.