News
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
view the rest of the comments
Not saying they did or didn't, but we're still in fog of war territory. We know the 1200 include military personnel (who are pretty much fair game) and that there are many civilians who died to reckless IDF fire. Again, not saying they didn't, but that the whole thing needs more investigation.
I agree that an investigation is needed but Israel has been blowing up its credibility with every lie it tells and every civilian it has murdered. Who’s going to investigate and how are they going to be able to gather evidence?
I'm certain a lot of people who have investigated have been killed for doing so. 45 journalists lost in this 2 months of war.
Yeah, it's real weird there's still no breakdown of IDF casualties and civilians.
Those civilians would not have died if Hamas had not attacked civilian areas. The whole reason there were any casualties is because Hamas attacked.
And justifies the IDF bombing their own citizens because...?
Hamas can't be blamed for the fact that they attacked. Fighting an occupier is allowed by international law, and if that wasn't enough Israel's blockade of Gaza is an act of war. This means that starting 1967, and even more so since 2005, any and all military action within the bounds of international law is fair game. They can be blamed for their conduct during the attack. We know civilians were killed by Hamas, and they absolutely should be condemned for that. However, the specifics, including how many of the casualties were civilians vs IDF, how many were killed by the Hamas and how many were killed by the IDF, how many were caught up in the crossfire, those are still in fog of war territory.
Slaughtering civilians is not acceptable under international law. The rest is just propaganda until you can produce data to back it up. Just stating that Israel committed blue on blue attacks is not really good enough. Even then the scale of the attacks by Hamas will have sent Israeli defence systems into turmoil. Getting confused and hitting a wrong target is pathetic, it is not a criminal offence if it is done in a national defence situation.
Please tell that to Israel, since they’re doing an awful lot of that.
Unfortunately you're not a civilian if you're dressed like one but holding an RPG.
I'm sure you've seen the video of the 'medic', who stripped the rifle from the wounded man instead of helping him and handed it to another 'civilian' who was firing on something, presumably IDF forces.
Just like the hospital losing protection once Hamas sets up in it, we're seeing the weaponization of international laws and the complete disregard for the rules of war here and it's fucking tragic.
What video can you link it
Sadly this is how an this war is fought. The Hamas is no regular army, they are terrorists who can hide among civilians, but this also gives no justification for clear attacks on civilians. Israel is in a very delicate and complicated situation...
I'm not saying they're allowed to slaughter civilians. I'm saying while we do know civilians were murdered by Hamas, and we absolutely should condemn that, we don't know if civilians were wholesale slaughtered or not (alternatively, whether Hamas soldiers had a policy of killing unarmed civilians or not). When you include the fact that the Israeli casualties include IDF personnel and civilians the IDF killed (not accidentally, see this for more details), we need to know at least the approximate number of those people before we can assign blame. This is why I said we're in fog of war territory.
"Hamas attacked so all casualties are their responsibility" doesn't check out, which is why we need to wait for the details (which still haven't come out).
They created that fog of war though. Israelis would not have made any blue on blue attacks without the attack happening. We could argue all day if Hamas is directly or indirectly to blame for some of the killings, but none of them would have happened at all without the attack. It is not as if the Israelis recognised Hamas was attacking and they used it as an opportunity to kill a few more of their own is it?
I have heard the stories. Governments are known for funding backfiring throughout history, but I don't know enough about it to give an opinion.
Now do a backflip and say Hamas is responsible for the IDF doing the same actions in Palestine.
That is not the same as stating what Hamas has done is not really as bad as it was because X y or Z.
Israel has abused the situation without a doubt. Israel has ran apartheid policies for many years. Israel has been killing Palestinians and evicting them over a very long period. None of this excuses what Hamas did. I do not have a favourable opinion of either group tbf.
It’s both sides that are the problem, right?
The reason Hamas attacked is that Israel is trying to genocide palestine.
It is certainly part of the issue. Other factors you cannot ignore are the influence of Iran and Russia with the intent of adding financial pressure on the US. As well as the plan to destabilise the push Netanyahu from within Israel is under for his extreme views. This is why I say you cannot push all the blame on the Palestinians. Another side is that Hamas and Hezbollah have a very public agenda to murder all Jews in Israel. This leaves Israel with an open door too defend itself. And where there is war there is abuse.
Israel literally is trying to murder all Gazans, so whatever Hamas may or may not desire, it's not actually relevant. Reality is the thing that counts.
Not strictly true when the far right in Israel are using the Rhetoric from Hamas and Hezbollah to give credit to their reasoning. What better reason to be a nasty bastard towards a group than knowing they also want to kill you. You cannot try to push that these groups are not your enemy. They even use this as an excuse to intimidate and thieve from the West Bank, who have a government that wants to resolve the problems and push Israel out of its land.
WTF kind of terrorism supporting comment is this?
Hamas published their own videos showing them murdering civilians. They threw grenades into bomb shelters that families were hiding in.
You're blaming the response for people dying? The response that has been widely panned as taking too long, allowing many civilians to perish?
WTFF.
Israel used terrorism to found their state.
What makes it immoral to use against Israeli colonization?
Bro, Israel was founded by UN decree. The Palestinians were given the same deal, they were actually offered a better deal in the 30s and refused. It wasn't founded by terrorism, it was defended from immediate attack by its Arab neighbors though.
FFS, the Palestinians had millions of dollars set aside for them to set up their government and society, funding that Israel was never provided.
I'd suggest you read the UN declaration before going about spreading disinformation.
Jews are indigenous to Judea. To claim they're colonizing their Homeland is laughable. Palestine isn't even an Arabic word, they're colonizers from the Arabian Peninsula for crying out loud. It's crazy that narrative took off.
Okay I was gonna actually respond to your points but the moment you said this I realized you don't know much about this conflict. Palestinians are also natives of Judea, now called Palestine.
Do you understand how and why the name Palestine was given to the area? Palestine isn't an Arabic term at all, that's because the people who you say are indigenous to the area came from the peninsula.
Sigh. Seriously read a book. Or no read a Wikipedia article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#Origins
You're currently spreading Israeli propaganda.
I've read a few books on my way to a masters in geography with a minor in middle eastern history. Just a few.
Like in other arabized nations, they colonized the lands to establish themselves there. That they can be genetically linked to the region is only proof that they've been there for an extended period which no one disputes. They've been there since they ethnically cleansed the region originally.
Either this is bullshit or you need a refund on your degree.
It feels like you didn't even read what I wrote/quoted. Modern Palestinians have a strong genetic link to the ancient Canaanites. Not Arabs, the Canaanites. There was no ethnic cleansing of Palestine after the Arab conquest, and if there was you're gonna need a really good source (you won't find one because it doesn't exist).
Hold up, are you trying to argue that after a thousand years of interbreeding the genetic lines are clear there?
Seriously? Of course they're integrated after all this time.
Okay now you're contradicting yourself. Didn't you just say that Arabs ethnically cleansed the region? Then who did they interbreed with? You know what no need to answer, after that minor in middle eastern history either way you're knowingly spreading propaganda despite knowing it's wrong. Get a life.
No contradiction. They've routinely attempted to cleanse the region, in parts having success but never quite getting the job done. Jews are tough to get rid of as the Arabs and Germans etc have found out. You gonna claim that the Holocaust wasn't an ethnic cleansing? There were Jews in Germany when that ended.
That you're attempting to use this as some gotcha, shows your ignorance and desperation. You've tripped on your own stupidity there pal.
I've got a life, it's fulfilling and joyous. It's filled with the great admiration of the Jewish people and their history in the region which brings endless joy to all around.
An immoral thing is immoral regardless of the reasons. Everyone thinks they are the good guy, everyone thinks their actions are justified.
https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/
This is why I'm saying we need to wait for more information. Quick reminder that Israel still hasn't said how many of the 1200 who died were IDF.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/mondoweiss/
Can you please use less bias sources if you're going to attempt to spread lies?
Like this one is known for being extreme and Antisemitic. If this is where you're getting your information, you should probably find better sources.
This is mediafactcheck's bias coming through. This site is founded by Israeli Jews and is explicitly intended to give a Jewish perspective on the conflict. Media fact check takes the words of Zionist-sympathetic organizations like the anti-defamation league too highly, so Mondoweiss gets labeled as antisemitic even though personally I haven't seen a single example of antisemitism on it. The claim that a site created and run by an Israeli, progressive Jew is antisemitic, there needs to be sufficient evidence for that, otherwise the most logical conclusion is that antizionism is being presented as antisemitism.
Can you provide another source? If it's verifiable, you shouldn't have an issue providing something that is considered less biased then.
https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861
(Despite the name they have a pretty good rating on mediafactcheck).
https://therealnews.com/did-israels-military-kill-its-own-civilians-on-oct-7
You're relying on a single account from someone who admittedly wasn't present?
I'm not able to definitively state the Israelis didn't kill their own in an attempt to take out the terrorists but nothing here is anything close to definitive that they intentionally wiped out their own people.
Sigh it's now clear that you're not discussing this in good faith so I won't engage any further. For anyone else bothering to follow the comment chain down this far, this guy is purposely misinterpreting the articles to create the slightest hint of weakness in a part of the evidence and dismiss the whole thing. Read the articles yourself and then decide if they're "close to definitive" or not.
Purposely calling out bias is now misinterpretation?
Ya, you're in the 'alternative facts' world where reality doesn't matter so long as it backs your narrative.
Find a source that's not biased, and doesn't reference your original biased source and I'm interested.
The bottom link seems to meet your criteria, but it doesn't seem like you care.