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Headphones

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New headphones - not impressed with the overall sound - improvements possible without amp? (alien.top)
submitted 1 year ago by xXRyuuGinXx@alien.top to c/headphones@hi-fi.community
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Hello guys.

A few days ago I got a new headphone.

It's the Fostex T50RP 50th anniversary edition.So not a T50 in a standard way because it has T60 drivers, T60 earpads and a different headband.My old headphones were audio technica ATH-M30.

I'm only driving them through my PC.

Mainboard is an AsRock B650E Steel Legends Wifi with a Realtek ALC897 Audio Codec sound chip.

The biggest difference compared to my old headphones was that the Fostex headphones were a lot quieter which is probably normal given that they are way harder to drive and given that they are planar headphones. Usually I was using 30% volume on windows and that was more than enough for me. Now with the Fostex headphones I have to use something between 40-50% but I still have the feeling that somehow punchiness is missing. They are way more clearer and more detailed compared to my old headphones but my old headphones had more punch (as in bass). At least that's what I'm thinking.

I read a few days regarding this "issue" and some people mentioned that the Nahimic sound driver could be an issue. But I tried both... With and without (completely uninstalled everything that was related to it) and it made zero difference. Now when playing songs I can hear still random noises in the background but it's at the exact same place where it was when listening with my previous headphones. That gives me the impression that a DAC would be a good idea.

My question is now: Is there something I can change on the windows settings to make my Fostex headphones fuller and louder without damaging my ears or is an amplifier the only solution here? Because originally I haven't planned to purchase amp and/or DAC and finding a good budget option is hard. Already tried looking for something on AVexchange but most people selling CONUS only or one guy doesn't even reply anymore (he sold a JDS Labs Atom stack but it seems like he is either banned or didn't came online anymore for a few days now which is a bummer). Also it's hard finding good options because I'm from Germany so majority of amps would cost extra taxes like Schiit stacks or JDS Labs stacks. But I read about quite a lot of issues with Schiit (ground issues, overheating issues, some headphones died when you did not turn them off etc.). For iFi it's a bit similar. There seems to be an issue with the autoplay function where everything is delayed somehow. I really don't know what to do at this point.

Thanks for everybody who is able to help.

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[–] filipbrandwagt@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The headphones just have a different sound signature, the M30x has more bass than the T50RP. Getting an amp wouldn't change how the headphones sound, just make them louder. If you think the bass on the T50RP is lacking, you have two options: either use EQ or buy different headphones.

[–] xXRyuuGinXx@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

That's really sad... I liked the overall sound signature of the audio technica.

It's just that they were already around 12 years old and were falling apart which is why I was in need of new headphones. Never thought that new headphones would sound so bad compared to older ones. And I am already using them since 8 days now so I should've getting used to the new sound signature. Too bad but I really don't like it.

Initially I wanted the Denon AH-D5200 but they were too expensive in my country (599€) so I was going for the Fostex ones because the older Denon models were using Fostex drivers as far as I know and I liked the Purplehearts in the past so I thought that these new headphones could sound similar...

[–] MostPatientGamer@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

After using the same headphone for 12 years everything that has a different sound signature is gonna sound jarring.

Your best bed would be to either return these then go to an audio store and test headphones one by one until you find something that sounds agreeable in stock format, or give yourself a couple of weeks to get used to a new sound signature, or tweak the sound signature to your liking using EQ.

[–] xXRyuuGinXx@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Yes I already returned them.
I haven't read into the equalizer apo stuff and I would need a few days to understand all these things so by the end of these days the return window for these headphones would've been gone. It doesn't matter much. If the stock tuning is not enjoyable for me then there's really no sense to invest more time into them.

And yes you are right. I will never blindly buy any other headphones from now on without being able to test them before. Problem is that there isn't a big variety of headphones to test in our stores where I live so I will probably end up with some cheap 20€ headphones lol...

[–] HotRoderX@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sound is very subjective and you might want to see what sorta sound signature your OG headphones had. Then try to get a similar sound signature.

Example my Fostex TR-xx Ebony's are complete base cannons and will rumble your jaw if your not careful.

While my T1's have a much more Treble heavy sound that I enjoy.

Then there are more neutral headphones like my Atticus and Amirons (still a bit bass heavy).

[–] xXRyuuGinXx@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Yes it's really hard finding a good replacement for my old audio technica headphones because I don't have the option to test that much. We only have standard electronic markets in here (MediaMarkt, Saturn and stuff like that) but they don't have really much audiophile headphones. They only have something like Bose, older Sony's and a few Sennheisers. So it's hard for me finding the right ones.

[–] Achterlijke_mongool_@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

so I was going for the Fostex ones because the older Denon models were using Fostex drivers

They were using fostex dynamic drivers, not planar drivers. Totally different.

It looks like you've done a lot of reading up but are misunderstanding a lot of things.

You'll need an amp for those headphones, bass will sound better. If you want more bass then change the earpads. T50RP are very susceptible to this.

Just get an ifi dac. Those a good and have a little button for extra bass.

[–] xXRyuuGinXx@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I already returned them.

[–] Haydostrk@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Buy an external DAC and amp because they are both a problem. If the headphones are bad anyway return them. Don't wait

[–] xXRyuuGinXx@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The headphones are not bad in a way that they are not functioning properly because they do. From what I could read over the past months majority of people were always typing that those "hard to drive headphones" won't even be drivable through a normal PC. But it turns out that they are. I think 40% on windows volume is still quiet normal. I often read that people are using 70% or even higher. I would just like to know if the sound can be improved somehow with an amp or if that won't make a big difference in the end? Because I saw that these headphones require a lot of juice and I don't even know if the power from my mainboard is enough which maybe causes the lack of punchiness in the sound.

I don't think that other headphones that are maybe easier to drive would sound better if windows is the culprit.

[–] Haydostrk@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It should not make a difference.

[–] xXRyuuGinXx@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's a shame.

​

But I guess I will give these headphones back then. They are really not what I was searching for. Thanks for the fast reply.

[–] Icy_Ad4813@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

It's not the DAC or power that's the issue with the lean midbass, it's the fact that you bought planar magnetic headphones. It's common knowledge that they can't make the air pressure that the dynamic driver does in the midbass.

[–] Simeh@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Ohms (power) and dB (loudness) are two different things.

[–] MOK1N@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Looking at the specs, an Impedance of 50 ohm with a sensitivity of 92dB @ 1mW, I think these headphones would absolutely benefit from a powerful amp. As someone that previously owned a fostex headphone, the T60RP, when paired with an amp that could push 3-4 W, the bass quality improved, and the highs were less harsh. But something that equally benefited the headphones were changing the pads for something deeper like ones from dekoni. That would also have a significant impact on its tuning.

But if you're on a budget, and you don't want to have to spend all this money to get an amp and change out the pads, you might be better off selling/returning it and getting something easier to drive. The T50RP's are popular with modders that want to tinker with these cans.

[–] Regular-Cheetah-8095@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

How exactly did the amp cause the bass quality to be improved and the highs to be less harsh? Like the mechanism, how an amplifier interacted with the headphone to allow these things to happen. I’m curious.

[–] AccomplishedFail2247@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It doesn’t, he’s got placebo. Amps and Dacs don’t unless they’re broken or intentionally designed to introduce distortion like tube amps. What he’s hearing is that his headphones are louder, and that loud = better

[–] Regular-Cheetah-8095@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Shhhhh. I know. I’m fishing here.

[–] MOK1N@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

The first thing to consider is the interaction between impedance and sensitivity, to determine if a headphone would even benefit from an amplifier. In other words, are they difficult to drive, or how efficient are they? Manufacturers don't purposely create difficult to drive headphones just to screw over consumers and make them spend more money, although they could do a better job of making a disclaimer of how best to drive their headphones. A lot of these issues arise from manufacturers not using a universal method of measurements or listing their specs in relevance to 1mw vs 1VRMS, which isn't easy to translate 1:1.

One quote in reference to how amps change the sound of headphones: "The amps themselves shouldn’t change the sound signature of your headphones but give them the power to have a correct sound signature." Certain parts of a song may sound recessed if the headphones lack power. It's also why I believe that the bass is the most immediate part of the frequency to be noticeably different, because the low end frequencies require the most amount of power to move the diaphragm back and forth efficiently, compared to the higher end frequencies. If you've ever seen a speaker woofer shake and vibrate when that bass hits. When a not-so-efficient headphone is supplied sufficient power, for example, the bass often tends to tighten up and become punchier.

There's a lot more other other technical jargon about amplifiers like total harmonic distortion (THD) that I won't pretend to completely understand. But there's tons of places you can read about it if you're interested. You can also check out oratory1990's page as he's an audio-engineer that's also well versed in electroacoustics.

There are a couple of websites that try to calculate and give a guideline as to how much power headphones may need based on their specs that you can try out.

https://www.headphonesty.com/headphone-power-calculator/

https://www.hear.audio/2019/06/01/headphone-power-calculator/

[–] whitesaviorbehavior@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

you need juice for t50s for sure. you can scrape by with an E10k (if you're using stock pads), but that is the bare minimum.

[–] Getagraxx@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Have you checked the realtek console software is installed?

[–] xXRyuuGinXx@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It doesn't matter much now because I already sent them back but yes I did.
There was a nahimic utility software (but if you don't mean that then nevermind) which changed nothing. I even uninstalled it completely which ended up having no sound anymore so I had to install it again.

Also I checked every audio possible from windows and changed the bit rates and stuff that was changeable.

[–] Getagraxx@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ah okay. Just for future reference, if you're using a realtek chip. There is Realtek software than can help with hard to drive headphones. Anything 60 ohm and under will be deemed easy to drive by the driver and will go into low performance mode. In this software you can change the amplification level to better suit harder to drive headphones. This might have provided what you required but it seems like you're still on the hunt for the right pair of headphones. Also you should totally get a dac and amp setup. Have a look at the Xduoo MT-602 for amplification.

[–] xXRyuuGinXx@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ah you probably mean the Realtek Audio Console?
Yes I'm aware of this software but in the windows settings under system and then under sound there are exactly the same options and I tried everything there.

Originally I wanted the Denon AH-D5200 for a long time because they were reduced to 349€ for a short amount of time on a seller in germany. But I wasn't able to buy them at that time because I was buying a new PC and had no money. Now it's at 599€ again which is too much for me to justify just for headphones.

Nonetheless thank you for your tips. I will keep it in mind that an amplifier and DAC might be an option.

[–] KingBasten@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

IMO you should first get headphones you really like and only then worry about EQ and amp/dac. People should see that you are on a budget, in that case spending hundreds on source gear gets you very low return on investment. The headphones make up so much of the total sound and while some people can get really great results with EQ, for the average person it's a bit much to get that deep into it. Most of us are just looking to boost the treble or bass a bit, or use a harman curve preset maybe, which for all of that if you don't start with headphones you already like, will be an uphill battle.

If you like bass a lot you should look into something like Meze Neo maybe, they are quite bass heavy and easy to listen to. Pads get hot though. Fidelio X2 is also pretty banger, or DT990. If you don't like bass, look into Sennheisers first. Good luck, it really can be a rabbit hole.

[–] xXRyuuGinXx@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

There are a few things I can tell for headphone requirements:

  1. I am very treble sensitive. My old audio technicas are having this problem with YouTube videos. S, T and Z sounds do sound like an ice pickle in my ear. That's why I know that Beyerdynamic won't be good for me. I heard that if you're getting older you won't notice these frequencies anymore and then people tend to use Beyerdynamic more often but I have a few years more until I am reaching that point (I'm 33 years old). The DT 700 Pro X and 900 Pro X should be an exception and maybe the DT 177x GO but I have no option to test those because Germany isn't selling them in their stores.
  2. I really like bass but not so much that everything else starts to sound muddy which I heard is the case for the Meze headphones.
  3. The main music I am listening to are genres like deathcore, metalcore and japanese rock and visual kei. Bands like Orbit Culture, Within Destruction, Until I Wake, Currents, Hollow Front, Dir En Grey, Girugamesh but also softer stuff like Dayseeker, Sleep Token, Bilmuri or Valiant Hearts.
  4. My father and brother are having Sennheiser headphones but they are Bluetooth ones and they sounded a bit dull and lifeless to me. But it could be because my ears are too big to fot in those tiny earpads so a lot of sound leaked. Also the sub-bass is really short for the music I am listening to because bass is required for the kick drums for example as far as I know.
  5. As previously mentioned I have big ears. The earpads from the Fostex headphones were very comfortable and I head enough space for my ears although my ears touched a bit the material where the drivers are lying behind.
[–] EscaOfficial@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

If you're not maxing out your volume, an amp is not going to add anything that isn't there. You might get a slightly cleaner signal, but it wont "fix" your headphones

[–] ReekyRumpFedRatsbane@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I have some personal experience with the T60RP Argon (a mod that is a bit harder to drive) and motherboard outputs.

In my case, the motherboard's integrated amp was able to provide plenty of voltage, but not enough current, and also not very quickly. So, bass (which needs a lot of power) was weak and less punchy. Even my phone (which has an ESS Sabre DAC comparable to the LG V60) did better here, but in later comparisons I noticed it has a bit of a bass roll-off, too.

I am now using a Qudelix 5k for all my desktop and mobile audio needs, which, even without EQ, provides a notably better bass response than either of those two because the implementation is just better.

I'm guessing you'd have a similar experience. Because it's a fundamental issue with how much power can be provided, you also can't fix this with EQ alone, because that doesn't change what the hardware can do. But you don't need a very high-end or powerful amp, something small and simple will do, as long as it's designed properly (like the aforementioned 5k).

[–] SharingDickPix2Asker@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Hello.

Planars respond well to EQ. You seem to have volume headroom left over. Bump up the frequencies through trial and error.

Not EQ? While I don't have these specific headphones, I have a sibling, the T20rp. These are the vented headphone in the family (meaning it's semi-open). Due to having vented cups, they have a bigger bass response. This is the only difference between the following models: T20rp https://www.stereophile.com/images/ifmeasure/FostexT20RPMk3.pdf T50rp https://www.stereophile.com/images/ifmeasure/FostexT50RPMk3.pdf

What you could do, if you would be comfortable doing it, is modify them by opening a hole in them. While you have the anniversary model, same thing should apply.

This is not a recommendation. But it is presented to give you an understanding that there are options for mechanically modifying the sound, if you for some reason prefer this over EQ.

Side-note: the quantity of bass is hilarious on the stock T20rp. Think of a "fun" headphone, but exaggerated. Both in a good way, and not. But absolutely hilarious experience. Do recommend. (I am planning to modify them to Open Alpha given enough time. Already done the 3d printing steps)