Headphones

In my experience absolutely but amp/dac upgrades on my existing gear would be a 2x cost of dac and amp.

I currently use a $4000 r2r dac, and ive identified and tried my amp with two absolutely better dacs that i want to upgrade to but cant afford yet. The Weiss 502 dac or the Lampizator big 7.

My amp currently is $6000 and the Viva Egoista 845(12k and above) I was able to demo at a meet trounces it handily.

Not in the path of upgrading for now ive kind of settled but curiosity can hurt wallets thats for sure.

Alternatively a good audio buddy of mine into Stax has been eyeing on upgrading from his headamp blue hawaii to a Custom T2 or Grand Cayman and is looking to sacrifice a lot in order to do so.

Have you tried EQing them? I have the LCD-2Cs and I bought a Woo Audio WA7D Fireflies tube amp with the extra WA7TP tube power source. They sounded better than when running through my receiver. It just wasn’t quite enough, though.

I finally tried using Oratory1990’s Harmon target EQ preset for my LCD-2Cs. It was like one of those movie scenes where the light shined out of the clouds in those crepuscular rays (God rays for you Skyrim fans). It hit me right in the top of my head and I was floating on a cloud.

Try this out first before spending any more money.

Some do, some not.

If 2 DACs are doing their job properly, you won't hear the difference, regardless of price.

Recently bought Chord Dave, and yes it does make a difference, I had Arya v3 to test, and it sounded like he1000 stealth, I image susvara..

As someone who works with audio and pro audio products for a living and often uses the term "audiophool" (mostly when it comes to stuff like cables or power supplies):

DAC: Doesn't matter until you get into very specific applications (DSD comes to mind) and once you've passed the threshold of quality. Something like your SSL or my RME's or any other pro (or even prosumer) interface is just as good as the equally-priced stuff from audiophile companies, in practical use.

AMP: Is pretty usage-dependent, but does matter to some extent. I personally use a Lake People amp for my pro headphones (HD-800, DT-1770, LCD-X, HiFiMan, custom IEMs). It sounds more controlled than the headphone outs of my RME or other pro studio stuff I use like Grace - as it should, given its design. Also, certain topologies do sound and respond differently (discrete vs integrated, tube, and so on), but it is pretty subtle. For the most part it is so subtle as to not matter much.

I will say that standalone amps do tend to sound better, and it is noticeable. Once you hit that threshold of quality, though, the differences between those standalone amps are mostly down to design or minutiae.

I've probably purchased about $1,000 worth of audiophile-y DAC/amp stuff over the past five years, although I got nearly all of it back since I bought and sold it used, paired with gear like the Sundara and Andromeda. The extra headroom didn't matter, while the clipping and hissing resulting from the questionably competent engineering did. Now I'm down to some Apple dongles, a Qudelix 5K for Bluetooth, and a FiiO Q1 for the handful of occasions (read: ASMR) where they don't get loud enough for my needs.

It depends on the headphones. If they have room for more power, then yes they will perform better. The main things that will happen is they "open up" more, and they will have more low end. Both of those typically require more power to achieve.

The Dac side also matters, but only up to a point. I noticed a big difference in clarity and dynamics going from an external Sound blaster card to a Topping E30. I have not tried anything beyond that, but I have tried other usb c dacs, Qudelix 5k, Ifi Uno, Fiio BTR, BTR 5, etc. They are all within "placebo" difference, basically you might think one is better but it is too close to really care.

The short of it is, from my experience, something in the $50-100 range is a big upgrade from your basic motherboard, laptop (except the macbook pro I had), and phone audio. Past that, it is hard to tell. A quality dac makes a difference over cheap, but that doesn't mean you have to spend a lot. My desktop setup is the Topping E30 with a liquid Spark.

I will add this. My son got the Dakoni Blue planar magentics. They technically work off a phone, but sound shallow and dull. Zero bass. Same from his computer case running off his $400 gaming motherboard "high end" audio. I connected them to my Setup and they opened up a lot and had way more volume, but still didn't have the bass I expcted based on reviews. My Liquid Spark puts out 1.5 watts. We changed to the Topping D30II we bought to go with these, which puts out 2 watts, and they finally had the punch and volume we were looking for. I also bumped the bass up in windows with an EQ we found. They sound amazing now, but requied a butt ton of power. Also, when i did the same thing with my liquid spark, on the harder bass hits it would trip the amp in it and turn off. It was needing more power than I could deliver. On the flip side, my Sony 1AM2s sound very good, but don't change much between the amps or running balanced. They do open up some, but it wasn't enough for me to care. They sound very close running off my setup or just running off an apple dac.

So really comes down to the headphones, and even then I think the amp and power needed make more difference than a dac.

Let me fix your question for you:

Do we REALLY need another post about this?

Better DAC, meh, probably placebo.

Better amp, yes for sure.

Not talking about expensive stuff. Just basic. Maybe just good stuff at the same price of the bad one.

Amp’s definitely make a difference. Dacs do as well but that depends on the type of headphone in my opinion. If you have a bright headphone you probably don’t want a bright dac or vice versa. That being said once you get to a certain threshold there’s not much difference. I do think matching your gear is important. Someone buying let’s say a flagship headphone and powering it with a $100 amp /dac won’t give you the results you’re looking for. I do know r2r dacs do sound different than delta sigma dacs.

I use DAP, so change both DAC and Amp. Fiio M17 is divine and way beyond anything cheaper I have

I use an ifi Black Label with my HD800s and the sound quality was quite noticeable coming from my LG V60. Much deeper bass and clear/crisp highs.

with amps you will get more colour, not necessarily “better”.

I have Focal Stellias and Radiance, in addition to Anandas, Fostex TH-610s, and IEMs incl. Variations.

Nothing in any way hard to drive. Maybe that's the next area to look into...

On my desktop I run a SMSL SU-8s into a Singxer SA-1. For the office, I take in a Qudelix 5k.

With both setups I enjoy the music just as much as the other. I stop worrying about meaningless crap.

I'm not saying they are the same, just that they are both good enough that I'd rather focus on the more important bit.

That depends. DAC wise, unless you want to nitpick about details no human being can hear unless they measure it, then they do. Amp wise, you have to ask yourself if the quality improvement is actually real or just the Fletcher-Munson Effect making you think like so because the amp can give you more volume.

You just have to reach a level of competency and avoid the utter crap. I was driving my Audeze LCD-2 with a JDS Atom and it was fine, until I started to use EQ. Then it was missing just a little bit of headroom, so I got the THX789. That was fine except for a couple quiet tracks that I had to max out volume. Then I switched to a balanced DAC, the SMSL DO100 and now everything is just peachy keen. I'm getting reference level performance and the DAC/AMP stack did not cost a lot. Only the cans were a fairly large expense, but that's how it should be.

(everything i say is my opinion and none of this is a fact)
as an owner of lots of dacs/amps/headphones ... is a $400 amp much better than a $100 one? no.

how about $100 and $700 - the amplification part? no...

how about a $200 amp and a $1500 amp - surely, the $1500 amp ... amplifies the signal "better" than the $200 one - no... no it doesn't

when listening to my hipdac, which was $200 - music sounds amazing and perfect... nothing sounds wrong. there is no compromise.

this is the same for music coming out of the apple dongle...

rme adi? which cost 5x as much as my hipdac - everything sounds exactly the same, until you start hitting xbass or fiddling with eq.

my cambridge dacs/amps are also perfect - smsl... perfect - schiit - perfect... etc etc etc.

i don't have a piece of equipment that is "better" than another from the pure dac and pure amp standpoint - the difference is in the inputs, details, features, smell... touch... etc.

but that's from my point of view - other people have valid and valuable input on the matter.

I'm fairly sure it wasn't placebo. I went to a local store and got to try the HD600 with a Hugo TT 2 and with a Fiio K9 pro. In comparison, the second one was trash

No

That 5K is something special. It’s swinging way above its price class. I’ve compared it to ifi, fiiO, Questyle, and it’s no contest. Then I compared it to my $2400 desktop setup and damn… it’s at least playing in the $1000 class in terms of quality (not in terms of power output of course). So it’s a definite “audio hack” in my opinion.

The shit people pay up for is in the “time domain”, “psychoacoustic” realm. I think the 5K has some of that magic

When I jumped from motherboard sound card to FIIO K5 Pro on HD58x sound quality improved like 20%. But when I jumped from FIIO to topping A90&D90 on HD800s it got only slightly better.

If I could make decision second time I wouldn’t upgrade AMPDAC.

If you stay at the same price range you won’t hear any difference, you really have to spend a ton of money to hear a difference and even then it is subtle but it is there.

One of my first electronics projects was building a headphone amplifier out of some 9 volt batteries and some good-quality op-amps.

I compared the result against my $$$$ "audiophile" headphone amp and.... I couldn't tell a difference.

Since then I've been more interested in the best bang-for-the-buck headphones/amps/dacs and not the fanciest ones, and that's served me well.

I saw a Youtuber with a Hifiman EF400..and Hifiman edition xs..so i bought them, along with focal celestee. They said a amp/dac is good for your headphones. So I just did what they said and they seemed right.

As long as a DAC is decent it will be okay.

However, the AMP has a ton of more influence.

I just got my first Tube AMP and am Blown away by the sound Difference.

I have highly attuned hearing, according to tests, but to me its an unmistakable difference

No, if you go past a certain treshold of minimum quality it doesn't

I think it depends on the implementation of the dac and amp. I would say getting better headphones or messing with a good eq implementation makes more of a difference. It's the reason why I love my Cowon music players despite the initial dumb cost of almost costing the same as a brand new flagship phone. I do not regret it, though, as it allows me for quite the eq customization for different iems and headphones on the go. Definitely enjoy listening to music more on my music players more than the apple dongle, ifi go blu bluetooth device, and some other usb-c dac dongles I have.

as long as your headphones are loud enough and the amp has low distortion at loud volumes and doesn't colour the sound, that's all you need. the cheaper you can get that with the features inputs/outputs you want, the better. people chase synergy between amps and headphones, but unless one amp is colouring the sound, it's just a placebo.

People like fancy expensive things, and so they convince themselves its worth it. But if they did a blind test between an expensive and a cheap one, I doubt they would hear a difference or guess the more expensive one correctly and consistently.

Now, let's say you can guess correctly consistently, I'd have to argue the difference you are hearing would be hard to notice without trying so is the 1000 or more amp really worth the premium over a 200 one, in this scenario where you struggle to hear a difference?

And if you are someone who has magical ears and finds it super quick and easy to notice the difference between the cheap and expensive amp then I kinda feel bad for you, as you will probably have to waste more money, chasing sound.

I cant hear any difference between my pc (ASrock X670E Taichi motherboard) a FiiO K5 Pro ESS and a Samsung USB-C dongle.

HD650, Sony MDR-CD900ST, FiiO FF5.

Not really, no. It's more about usability for me.

I bought a Qudelix 5K to use out and about since I don't know how much longer I'll be able to have a phone with a headphone jack, and it's easier to do chores around the house with that clipped to my shirt instead of my phone in my pocket.

I have an iFi Zen Air DAC at my desk since the headphone jack on my computer is in kind of a goofy location and I also really like ASMR, so sometimes I want to jack my volume up for that. It can be nice to have that extra headroom for cases like that, or if your music is mastered really low for some reason, but I only spent $100 on that.

I fully think that people who proselytize the difference a DAC and/or amp make are just trying to justify the exorbitant money they put into their own stuff. This sub is also rife with people who are always chasing that high of buying new toys, so they never really enjoy what they have and just keep buying new stuff and using this sub to talk themselves into it.

The shortest answer is, "It all depends on you." Nobody can tell you what you're going to hear because we all hear differently. And the cost of the equipment has nothing to do with how well it's going to sound to you.

Try before you buy when it comes to audio.

My take on this is Yes, but compared to some shitty equipment only, as i believe the deminishing returns is much more pronounced when it comes to DAC and AMPs.

I have the audeze mm100’s and the ath r70x, I use a behringer 2x2 interface for listening and gaming on pc. I was curious if it was a weak point. So I got the audient id14 interface that claimed to have a “better” dedicated headphone amp. I spent hours listening to both and could not notice any improvement whatsoever. My weak point is not having a ground loop isolator for the interface but that only affects the microphone. It’s on its way right now. Just my experience.

SSL2 is 10dBu so thats like 2.4V? For me that is too weak for HD600, it sounds boring, likely due to dynamic range.

Quedelix 5K isn't particularly powerful either, and if I recall right it measured rather mediocre when it comes to SiNAD.

While I don't really care too much about SiNAD and inaudible noise ranges, the power is an issue. Both can be improved for cheap though. 85eu Topping DX1 Pro which is a DAC/Amp combo measures a lot better, and has more power, although for HD600 I would like to have a further dedicated amplifier connected to it (like Topping L30 II, JDS Atom Amp+ or even just cheap Douk U3). For one device 150eu Topping DX3 Pro+ perhaps might suffice :P

The difference for me is between listening and dancing :P

I have a Rupert Neve amp.....It helped make my headphones sound LOUDER.... certainly better than through my android...BUT I bought a Hip Dac 2 and use it through my laptop...I can say without hestitation that using the 4.4 jack has made everything sound extremely better...I dont really need the Neve amp anymore....Its absolutely amazing how much better the balanced jack makes all my headphones sound.

real talk, my apple dongle runs almost all my headphones just fine. I still use my qudelix 5k if i need more power or im using cans that need eq.

for desktop its about flavor. sometimes i like a tube sound, or the bass effect on ifi stuff