Freedom of speech or freedom of expression isn't freedom from consequences. Words matter, and they have consequences, and people should consider the consequences of their speech in public.
this post was submitted on 03 Nov 2023
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Agreed. Fuck off with this "we have no free speech" bullshit, substack (and it's freedom of conscience in Canada in the first place, not free speech). All of the things listed are social consequences, not criminal prosecution or some other government persecution. Sarah was booted by her party, not the government, and the rest are employers and universities. If there is fault, it lies with those organizations.
It's also not protected speech, so if there is fault, those organizations will have to suffer social consequences themselves, as it doesn't seem that they broke any laws.
The censured her:
The Doug Ford government has put forward a motion that would censure an Ontario NDP MPP over her comments on the Israel-Gaza war and ask they not be recognized in the legislature until a formal apology is made and a statement on social media is deleted.
The motion calls comments made by Hamilton Centre MPP Sarah Jama last week โantisemiticโ and โdiscriminatory.โ If passed, it would call on the Speaker not to recognize Jama in the House โuntil the Member retracts and deletes her statement on social media and makes an apology in her place in the House.โ
So they're trying to completely take away her ability to govern because of her speech. So yes, the government is trying to silence her.
And like several things Douggie has put through, it will ultimately be deemed illegal. That bill is a clear violation of charter rights.
I'm not familiar with how censure works in the Ontario Provincial Parliament legal framework. Do you have any examples of precedent where a censure motion has been struck down in court? Because my understanding is that the majority was within their legal powers to do this.
You mean the government that was handed a 66% majority by 17% of eligible voters?
You get the government you deserve when you don't fucking show up to vote.
There's a bit of a blurred line when they're members of government or government organizations versus private employers.
A political party IS part of government, even if it's not the political party leading the country. However, a party shouldn't be forced to keep somebody who goes off the rails and is causing them damage. At the same time, those same parties seem to be very pick-and-choose about which "rebellious" members they decide to expel and over what issues
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Indeed. And if the NDP won't allow its members to recognize that Israel is an apartheid state, then members who see it as such should abandon the party. Both those serving as public representatives, and regular members and donors.
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Don't be dense, read the article. The story is not about legality or free speech absolutism. It is about how the window of acceptable political speech in what is considered mainstream has narrowed to a stifling degree to exclude very reasonable milquetoast peacenik sentiments.
the story is not about legality
Then it shouldn't use the words "free speech" in the headline. Free speech is very much a legal term.
So is theft and murder and inheritance. We use legal terms in regular parlance all the time.
Ok, and? Regular parlance can be about legal implications too, I've never heard the words "free speech" used in a context with no connection to their legal meaning. Do you have a counter example?
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We don't. This isn't the U.S. with their freedom of speech, where you can say literally anything. We have something called freedom of expression, which does not cover hate speech, and a few other things.
The article is not about free speech absolutism. It is about journalism. Hate speech has nothing to do with it.
Perhaps the headline should have reflected the actual topic more accurately.
Take it up with Nora.
Or maybe people should've read the article instead of commenting based on the title
A) Welcome to the internet.
B) I don't actually think it's unreasonable to think that a headline should clearly indicate the subject of the article - why have headlines otherwise?
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well you should use your freedom of expression to express your concern for israel's actions on mainstream tv channels
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The US doesn't have freedom of speech either... Source: American.
I mean, you do have it codified in your Constitution as its very first amendment. Now, how much is it really protected, in practice...
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Iโm pretty sure only Cons try to say we have free speech because they donโt know our laws
Of note though; freedom of speech means freedom from persecution not freedom from consequence
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No, we have freedom of expression, not freedom of speech and it's not unlimited contrary to the USA.
It's not unlimited in the US, either, despite what the fascists think.
Ya, "Free Speech" as written in the constitution only covers congressional laws.
Even in the context of the US First Amendment, which makes it so that the government cannot abridge your right to free speech, it's not unlimited. Think "Yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater, when there's no fire," or libel/slander, or terroristic threats, or, I dunno, witness tampering.
There's lots of speech which must yield to other rights and protections.
I agree with many points from the article but I don't think the title choice was good
Therer are people who could be discussing this credibly but a troll like Loreto isn't one of them.
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