this post was submitted on 06 Nov 2023
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[–] Synthead@lemmy.world 168 points 1 year ago (2 children)

“When a defendant honestly believes he can’t possibly get a fair trial from the judge, one of the tactics is to antagonize the judge to a point of causing reversible errors,” Dershowitz says. “That is what happened in the Chicago 7 case, and I was one of the lawyers on the appeal in that case. Abbie Hoffman provoked Judge Hoffman to such a degree that the judge made mistake after mistake. And courts of appeal often reverse convictions or verdicts when the judge has made serious errors.”

What a dick. This does not sound like the legal process at work at all. Besides, innocent people would never do this.

[–] KevonLooney@lemm.ee 51 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The tactics have included attacks on Engoron’s court clerk, filibustering the prosecution’s witnesses with repetitive questions, and raising legal arguments the judge had already specifically prohibited.

Responding to these provocations with contempt charges is correct and proper. Any appeal court judge is going to see that Trump was treated with kid gloves here.

And it kinda doesn't matter what political party the appeal judge is. They really don't like people being disrespectful to them and ignoring their orders. It's like the number one thing all judges hate. This strategy will probably not work.

[–] njm1314@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't know about that last part so much. Current conservatives have shown that there is no level that they won't sink to and no level of hypocrisy they won't espouse.

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[–] IzzyJ@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It's so dumb that an appeal for a mistrial can get the whole case thrown out rather than simply retried with a different judge

[–] Tbird83ii@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 year ago

At this point, his strategy is to delay, delay, delay, get elected, and pardon himself.

[–] squiblet@kbin.social 104 points 1 year ago (3 children)

As the article mainly states, this isn't just because Trump can't help it but also as a strategy to make it easier to get a favorable appeal. Plus, it would stoke his favorite way to portray himself, as a victim, and fundraising:

there have been recent conversations among some of Trump’s 2024 campaign brass of how much of an immediate fundraising boost they would enjoy, if a New York judge were to try to put Trump in a cell for even a minute. “All the cash in the world,” one Trump political adviser says.

[–] phoneymouse@lemmy.world 82 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think the solution here would be for the judge to go after Trump’s lawyers. From the article they’re engaging in some of this behavior themselves, in addition to encouraging it in Trump. But, they want the optics of Trump getting imprisoned in order to play victim and try to help an appeal. Seems the judge could side step that and go after the lawyers instead, who have more to lose.

[–] RestrictedAccount@lemmy.world 51 points 1 year ago

Winner winner chicken dinner!

Lawyers are officers of the court and she can grab them by the short and curlies.

[–] Melody@lemmy.one 18 points 1 year ago

She should remand the entire Trump legal team to the jail for a day, and require Trump to stay at his home for that day as well.

[–] Deconceptualist@lemm.ee 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Can the judge jail the lawyers for repeatedly violating his orders? They should know better than to antagonize the court.

[–] SheeEttin@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Sure. A judge can hold anyone in contempt of court, and they can fine or jail them for any length of time.

[–] jballs@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But could you hold a lawyer in contempt of court for something their client tweeted? That doesn't seem likely.

[–] Madison420@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Yes you can. It's the lawyers job to keep their client in hand not the judges or the courts.

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[–] squiblet@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago

I am far from an expert, but I don't believe so. The court can fine them or maybe recommend them for censure and disbarment.

[–] cosmicrookie@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

Yeah... Trump political advisers seem to be correct all the time...

[–] Rhoeri@lemmy.world 55 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Dude needs to stand before a firing line, not go to jail.

[–] TacoNissan@lemmy.zip 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (14 children)

That's a lil extreme my guy

Edit: what fuckin world do we live in, where someone says that a politician needs to be shot to death, and the controversial opinion is to not shoot someone? Am I crazy for thinking that killing trump wouldn't solve anything? We shouldn't give people a martyr. The best way to get rid of someone is by shaming them and forgetting them.

[–] Rhoeri@lemmy.world 46 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

“Furthermore, 18 U.S.C § 2381, states that a person guilty of treason against the United States “shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.”

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[–] lateraltwo@lemmy.world 37 points 1 year ago (10 children)

When he says that on a fringe social media platform it's "lil extreme"

When Trump says that 5 thugs need to be put to death, who were found Innocent, it's just an opinion everyone is allowed to.

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[–] fosforus@sopuli.xyz 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Not sure about this really. You have a great point with the martyr risk, but then again, if Hitler had been executed in 1924, would the whole nazi thing have fallen on its face? Trumpism (much like Hitlerism) is a person cult. Perhaps killing their leader is exactly the kind of thing what people like Trump supporters respect and positively respond to.

The best way to get rid of someone is by shaming them

I think we can be pretty certain that this strategy is not working against Trump. Unless you find a shaming angle that actually works against his supporters. I have no idea what that could be since just about every angle that would work on normal people has been tried out.

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[–] HurlingDurling@lemm.ee 11 points 1 year ago

I think it is more towards the fear of him becoming re-elected and death -- while indeed extreme -- would prevent such an outcome.

[–] Rhoeri@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (7 children)

To respond to your edit:

Death as a punishment for treason would do a lot to stem the tide of treasonous fucks that are currently holding high positions in our political system.

The time for leniency is OVER. And making a martyr out of a huge sack of shit is just fine- let more of those fucks step out of line and see what happens.

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[–] xenoclast@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Not really. It's in line with all US laws to ask for the death penalty

18 U.S.C § 2381, states that a person guilty of treason against the United States “shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.”

Considering the scope and impact of his crimes. It would be reasonable to ask for the maximum punishment.

[–] teuast@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago

I agree, we should throw him in prison for the rest of his life.

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[–] takeda@lemmy.world 48 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I guess he is daring NY Judge, because it is a civil case.

He probably should have his release conditioned on gag order in federal cases. And he should be jailed if he breaks it.

If the fear is that his fans will riot, newsflash: they follow identity politics, they don't care how guilty trump is. Whatever they plan to do, they will do it anyway. So either treat him like you would treat anyone else for similar crimes or just forget about trials and let him do whatever he wants without any consequence. Because there's no point in wasting time if he can't be punished.

[–] xkforce@lemmy.world 46 points 1 year ago

Throw all of them in with the normal prison population and any conservative that tries to "liberate" them.

[–] rustyfish@lemmy.world 40 points 1 year ago

This reads like a dumpster fire. I hope the judge is way more level headed than I.

[–] postmateDumbass@lemmy.world 39 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The defense is just trumping up reasons for endless appeals.

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[–] YeetPics@mander.xyz 28 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I will straight up double-dog-dare them. I bet they won't, they don't have the balls.

[–] Etterra@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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[–] abigscaryhobo@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Same as every other time he has tried to stir shit with these trials. All they have to do is keep a level head and let the hammer drop. They've got him, the evidence is there, all they have to do is get the trials to go through with as few hiccups as possible. These judges need to keep a level head and they should be able to do so easily because, despite all the petulant whining and diversionary tactics, they've got him.

[–] xkforce@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

People said this many times before and he weaseled out of it. I will be optimistic if and I stress IF he ever faces consequences

Fucking do it already.

[–] cuibono@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Someone said that he could still become president even if he went to prison. Is that true? I don't understand how that would even work.

[–] TangledHyphae@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There's some weird argument by his cult that it's not in the constitution that a president can't be in prison. It's a lot of mental gymnastics, ignoring the fact that he traitorously stole classified nuclear documents from the US government, along with subverting democracy in the RICO case with the 18 co-conspirators.

[–] EatATaco@lemm.ee 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You're conflating two things here. There is absolutely nothing in the cotus that bars someone from becoming POTUS because they are in jail. Imo, there should not be, just like you should not lose your right to vote simply for being a felon.

However, there is something in the cotus that bard someone from being an officer of the state if they've been part of an insurrection. This, imo, should bar him, but I'm curious to see how the court cases play out.

[–] TangledHyphae@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Isn't being a traitor to the US (RICO case + stolen documents + Jan 6th insurrection) against the constitution though?

This Chicago Tribune article goes into more detail.

[–] EatATaco@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Treason is defined in the cotus, and none of the three things you posted would rise to the level of treason. The article even talks about it. Neither the Rico charges nor the classified documents, even with a conviction, would bar him from the presidency, but the jab 6th could make him ineligible.

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Also, giving the documents to foreign officials would probably be as well, but not just having them.

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[–] TechyDad@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Technically speaking, yes. Trump could be sent to prison tomorrow and still be elected President. There isn't any "the President can't be currently incarcerated" requirement. (Likely because the founding fathers thought it was self evident that a criminal shouldn't be elected President.)

As for how it would work, nobody knows. It's never happened. Would he get to go to the White House for 4 years and then have to return to prison to serve the rest of his sentence? (Assuming here that he couldn't just pardon himself.) Would he need to conduct presidential business from the Square Cell instead of the Oval Office? Would a SCIF need to be set up in the prison so that Trump could review classified materials from his cell?

We would be in totally uncharted territory if this happened.

[–] fosforus@sopuli.xyz 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hitler was imprisoned almost 100 years ago, in April 1924. Perhaps Trump is going by the playbook. Hitler was 34 years old then though, so that part is a little different.

[–] TheJims@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Maybe he’ll skip to the Führerbunker part with Eva Braun?

[–] Dekthro@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago
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