this post was submitted on 14 May 2026
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[–] Smoogs@lemmy.world 28 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Women who were interested in STEM were also called witches back then too.

[–] FosterMolasses@leminal.space 18 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yes. Just read the story of Job to see how big of a bastard God is in The Bible

[–] gandalf_der_12te@feddit.org 165 points 1 day ago (5 children)
[–] StarvingMartist@sh.itjust.works 60 points 1 day ago (5 children)

I remember my dad would tell me his teachers (mean ass nuns) would make him put his knuckles on the desk and smash that shit with a ruler until he stopped using his left hand

[–] fartographer@lemmy.world 17 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I remember my classmate telling me that they did the same to her in Louisiana public elementary school in the late '90s. The teacher even told her that it was because she was using "the devil's hand."

[–] scytale@piefed.zip 13 points 1 day ago

Can confirm. My kindergarted teacher in the early ‘90s slapped my hand with a ruler. Not sure if it was for religious reasons (there was no indication) or she just thought it was wrong. I write with my right hand now and my penmanship is shit.

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[–] gandalf_der_12te@feddit.org 18 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

i had one like these at school too. i often think about whether i should visit her again ... just as an "update" sort of years later ... due to her age, she's probably dead by now

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[–] notwhoyouthink@lemmy.zip 27 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (4 children)

Ah since some of us are sharing our childhood experiences with being left handed:

I am ambidextrous, like many lefties. While learning to write my letters in Kindergarten (age 5 for non-US peeps), my teacher noticed that I’d switch hands when the one writing got tired. She didn’t like this at all and kept telling me that I needed to choose one. She actually made quite a stink about it so I chose my left, idk why the left specifically.

I still write with my left, despite trying to retrain back to writing with both at different times in my life. I feel like a mini superpower was taken from me.

Interestingly enough, I’ve noticed that my large motor skills are best used with my right side (arm, leg, hand), and my small motor skills with the left. I think it’s a leftover from being truly ambidextrous, or it may be common amongst left handed people. Idk…the very few others I’ve asked seem to be left handed/sided exclusively.

[–] callyral@pawb.social 5 points 1 day ago

She didn’t like this at all and kept telling me that I needed to choose one.

i hate it when someone sees something cool and unusual and immediately feels the need to correct it... as if it were a negative thing.

oh - a kindergartner is so good at writing that they can write with either hand, and you see a problem in that?? it's such a sad way to think! it's counterproductive pedantry

[–] binarytobis@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I think if I had to choose a hand I would choose the right, just because we write left to right and I wouldn’t want to track my hand through fresh pencil and pen marks.

My friend in highschool was left handed and his left hand was always completely covered in graphite.

[–] notwhoyouthink@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 day ago

Yeah I definitely didn’t think it through, because too small lol.

I too suffered the graphite mark and even had it transfer to my face via scratching an itch. Very embarrassing as a kid!

I also had a tough time with spiral notebooks, markers, and craft scissors.

[–] TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

nobody is really wired to me one hand or the other, we can all learn to be ambidextrous. your are that way because you just feel more comfortable/experienced doing certain things with one hand than the other, it's a formation of neuromuscular habit.

it's just a matter of practice, but yes, as children the adults around us often DEMAND we be one or the other. just like they demand gendered behaviors, etc. And children conform because adults like conformity.

it's interesting as an adult, like getting coaching and having to re-learn basic bio mechanics you 'assume' are some sort of default, because well, nobody ever told/taught you you could/should be doing things differently. like there are different way to hold pens for different styles of writing...

not any different really when say, comes to language use and accents. you have a 'native' one you got from your upbringing, but you can unlearn it and a lot of people do because they won't gain social acceptance if they retain it. when I code switch to my 'native' speech... people freak out because it offends them because I'm supposed to sound smart and 'educated' , not like a stupid working-class hick. and of course, the first year i came back from college all my family/friends basically asked me why i was such a douchebag and talked so pretentiously...

[–] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.ca 3 points 22 hours ago

I don't believe that's true - handedness is a real thing. You might be able to learn to perform well enough with the other at something with practice, but that doesn't mean there isn't a naturally dominant hand for most people.

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[–] W3dd1e@lemmy.zip 37 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I was talking to a friend recently. I was telling them that I felt like maybe I was hallucinating my diagnosis because so many people around me also had been diagnosed.

She pointed out that we both like to be around people that understand. They don’t get mad when we interrupt each other because they are struggling with the same thing.

She was so right.

[–] TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

You could also both be hallucinating.

Collective delusion/hallucination is a real thing. Often reinforced when like minded individuals form a tight social group that serves to isolate them from anyone who might challenged the hallucination, and who seek to reinforce it in each other.

Human beings are prone to mass hysteria because we are social animals, and our 'truth' about the world is largely a construct of our agreement with our peers. Psychological illness and behaviors, like anorexia, paranoia, etc. are transmissible psychological conditions. They are ideas in your head that eventually become the truth of your reality as they are reinforced by the ideas and realities of the people around you, and part of the drive to do that is for people to have their ideals/realities validated by others.

[–] Juice@midwest.social 25 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

So, not trying to step on any mines here, and I get this is literally only a 2D representation of a phenomenon.

But what jumps out to me, is how "neurodivergence" is being defined kind of ahistorically. It supposes that neuro divergence is an essential, natural quality in humanity. That has real problems when we try to describe objective reality, especially the parts of us that aren't tangible.

Did ancient people mostly have 2 arms and legs, 10 fingers and toes at birth? Yeah, by all accounts. Were ancient people as intelligent as modern people? That question gets a little funky, because who and what gets defined as intelligent, is really historically and geographically dependent. European kings sent away to the most far flung monasteries to bring in trusted advisors who spoke multiple languages and could write awesome cursive; at the same time Fibonacci was bringing algebra and the foundations of calculus home from Turkiye and publishing them in Italy as brain teasers. Now cursive is worthless except as a craft, maybe some marketing, and calculus became the intellectual basis for the industrial revolution.

So if "neuro divergence" can be defined historically like intelligence, which in some ways the graph itself supports this claim, then we can't rely on an idea of human nature to make a point, especially since we are talking about scientific medical detection of a concrete divergence or disorder.

So like, what is divergence? What is being diverged from? The baseline has always been a vibe.

I've read studies that show better outcomes, increased happiness, better social integration measured among children and students with autism who spent time working on farms around animals. Structured, satisfying, hands on work, that used to make up most of the population. Now farmers is a micro minority, either owning land and charging people to work it, or working land for not enough money -- hard, degrading, difficult, exceedingly dangerous work.

Other factors like screen time, social media, increase in dietary simple sugars, all show measurable changes in behaviors of people with ADHD, social anxiety, autism, bipolar, borderline disorders. Academics like Michel Foucault have studied how mental health treatment and psychiatry (additionally schools, and hospitals) are directly descended from the development of mass imprisonment and incarceration during the industrial revolutions in England, France, Germany, etc.,

Foucault also reviews sources that show more kind and forgiving attitudes in society toward people with severe social dysfunctions and intellectual disabilities. I wouldn't go nearly as far as saying that people with disorders and divergences were better off -- I believe that the medieval monastery was a "safe" place for a lot of people with what might now be described as neuro divergent, but also acknowledge the medieval church exploited poverty and mental illness for official and unofficial purposes.

But it does raise the question of how people, who may be intellectually "equal," when raised under different conditions develop quite differently. And the way our current system functions, it uses value judgments and certifications, etc., to slot me into a specific place. But once in that place, i have to almost be a certain kind of person in order to succeed. The role isn't suited to the person filling it, but to the needs of the organization. And usually the org needs to make money.

If there is greater social stigma towards disorder and divergence than there once was, that plays a major factor in whether people even want to be diagnosed. Lots of people have commented on self identification with neuro divergence as being a "tik tok trend" or some such. But a friend of mine, in an unofficial obit she wrote for someone older, made a point to say that previous generations looked at MH like it meant you were off to meet the business end of an ice pick.

For myself, learning I have ADHD and treating it has been holistically helpful. I'm open about it with people, we will see if it bites me in the ass.

I just worry a bit about the framing of "people have always been this way." While I agree it is true in a way; I think our society is extremely stressful and toxic.

And then to say that the baseline of neuro divergence is unchanged throughout time buys cover for people who are responsible for the environmental changes making people unwell, and getting richer because of it.

[–] greedytacothief@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

As a person who's special interest is calligraphy, what do you mean by cursive? I had always thought that scripts were on a spectrum between gothic and cursive, with more strokes per letter or less strokes respectively. Though I mostly practice ornamental penmanship (fancy spencerian), so I don't know much about the history of hands in Europe.

[–] Juice@midwest.social 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I guess I'm drawing a line between the late medieval period when there was accelerated social development of the EU, but not enough scribes and scholars, and so their work suddenly became very sought after in a new world made of contracts and written agreements. So I'm probably talking about arguably two different things. First when writing in a very formal manner was a literal sign of intelligence, because that kind of intellectual work became a necessary component of late pre-modern statecraft, and hence highly valued by the ruling classes of the time and place. The second connection is to cursive, which is a formalized writing that had real legal and business value just a few generations ago.

So I'm sure I am butchering the history of any actual scripts that were mentioned in this effort post. But as someone who has a pretty lively fascination with handwriting, font and text in general, I'd love any questions, clarifications, resources, criticisms and reprimands that are due!

[–] greedytacothief@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Well I don't think the vocabulary is particularly important here, since they likely didn't use the words in the same way we do. Like some scripts like batard or English secretary hand were evolutions of the formal script that reduced pen strokes to be faster to write making them more cursive.

But I'm curious about the history of connected letter scripts like Italian round hand. But most of the books I've read about handwriting have been in the American tradition, and it helps they are easy to find on the Internet. Some cursory reading on the subject seems to point to it coming from Italy in the form of old Roman cursive. To my eyes old Roman cursive seems related but is too different for me to call a flowing connected letter script. This isn't surprising though since it was used to write on wax tablets.

It seems like something we would recognize in the modern world as a connected letter cursive originated in the late 15th century Italy out of italic script. But I don't speak Italian or Latin so I don't know how to find any primary sources on this.

[–] Juice@midwest.social 2 points 1 day ago

Italy is a fascinating region to study language, it was broken up into city states well into the 1800s, with some of those city states serving as the center of culture and intellectualism for all of Europe, at various times. So there was like these very advanced areas of Italy, and these very backwards parts, and the 1800s was all about getting people all speaking the same language, the Florentine dialect.

I bet if someone took on such a study it would be a very uninteresting read. Also Italians are friendly and speak good English I bet you could connect with someone who could help explore the topic more!

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[–] haxboar@hexbear.net 10 points 1 day ago
[–] kopasz7@sh.itjust.works 71 points 1 day ago (3 children)

But we only can know the yellow. I wouldn't be surprised if the blue line had a positive slope over a ten thousand year scale. We are less and less fit for the environment we make.

[–] BennyInc@feddit.org 34 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I just read that book about Henry Markram. One of his points is that autism is genetic, but how much and by when it shows depends on the calmness of the upbringing of the child in the first years. Him having grown up in a peaceful African village let his brain grow different from what children nowadays experience with information overflow and just overstimulation in general. So yeah, the environment we create (in general) could lead to more autism in a way.

[–] FireRetardant@lemmy.world 23 points 1 day ago

Also upbringing could significantly impact the development, or lack of, coping skills for individuals. A kid with autism growing up in an environment where they can develop skills to help manage their autism may grow up without ever knowing they were autistic. Same coud be on the reverse where stricit restrictions could reduce the coping skills and exacerbate some of the difficulties that come with autism.

[–] notwhoyouthink@lemmy.zip 12 points 1 day ago

I’ve thought of this so many times and I agree with you.

As we’ve essentially homogenized human society and the roles required to sustain said society, we (neurodivergents) have indeed become less and less fit for the environment we’ve chosen to make.

I once heard this great take on neurodiversity’s role in creating groups of people with ‘specialized’ functions that served the larger group as a whole (I’m taking pre-modern/hunter gatherer tribes). What we call neurodivergence was simply a brain wired to complement or even enhance neurotypical brain functions and vice versa. The brain was evolving to become as diverse as the rest of our bodies, as equity helps ensure survival.

The way I see it, we are like puzzle pieces that fit together to make each other stronger as a unit. We are not simple shapes that one stacks together in an attempt to make structure. I’m sure there’s a much better analogy out there, but this is what my mind has been working on for some time now.

Or, there's just no such thing as "typical" within an organ as complex as the human brain. There is only social contexts in which some brains thrive and others struggle... combined with the innate human instinct to form in groups and out groups.

[–] minorkeys@sh.itjust.works 29 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (6 children)

We can't know whether the prevalence rates have changed or by how much and its foolish to assume it's only because of better awareness. The world we exist in has changed immensely and we are subject to the affects of those environmental changes.

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[–] TotallyWorthLife@lemmy.world 14 points 1 day ago

Also the un-taboofication of it... see, the "left-handed epidemic"

[–] RumorsOfLove@lemmy.dbzer0.com 20 points 1 day ago (14 children)

As a trans, let me warn you about the pathologization of normal human social patterns.

[–] Jako302@feddit.org 8 points 1 day ago

Autism and adhd are classified as disorders instead of diseases for a reason. Disorders per definition disrupt normal/expected body functions and don't necessarily have any underlying cause. Neurological disorders are just a collection of issues that disrupt your ability to take part in society as the majority would expect.

And anyone struggling with it will tell you that, while it may have been normal human behaviour a few hundred years ago, its fucking exhausting to get trough life with it in this age.

I know where you are coning from. With how much shits hitting the fan right now I don't know if I'd want that lable on me officially. But at the same time does getting diagnosed open up a way to easier help and accommodation for issues that are 100% real.

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[–] obinice@lemmy.world 15 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Does this graph account for the huge lack of available diagnosis?

We've been on waiting lists for YEARS that only grow and grow to get a 2 hour appointment with someone who can diagnose us with ADHD.

It'll never happen, I'm sure. The government would rather not put resources into diagnosis, so they can claim almost nobody has ADHD, and not provide any support or recognition for it.

[–] BarrelAgedBoredom@lemmy.zip 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Two psychiatrists have told me that I almost certainly have ADHD but "we don't prescribe controlled substances" so they weren't going to formally diagnose me. It seems the only place I can get a diagnosis as an adult is private specialty clinics. I'm poor and the two clinics in my area aren't sliding scale (which I can't afford for most clinics anyway) so I just get to sit here with a confirmation of what I've known for years and no way to get it treated, or at the very least, put down on paper

[–] TherapyGary@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Good lord what country do you live in?

[–] Kellenved@sh.itjust.works 9 points 1 day ago (5 children)
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[–] aqwxcvbnji@hexbear.net 7 points 1 day ago

Yes, but also capitalist conditions which make it so that human beings can't develop normally. For example: look at his clip of snub nose monkeys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yARtExKaIH8

A baby is born, and eveyone is in competition so they could take care of the new baby. If you look at antropological studies of hunter-gatherers, our natural state of affairs shares some crucial elements with this group. A large group of adults which live together and which help eachother with raising a child. This child, as a result, grows up in an environment in which it learns that adults are to be trusted and adults will help them. The current family structure leads to overworked parents which are not equipped for the task of raising a child, which structurally leads to much more conflicts and thus lack of trust (if not trauma).

If we'd organise our society in a way which would correspond to how our species evolved, we'd have a lot less mental health problems.

Just to be clear: this isn't meant to minimize mental health issues or disparage medical treatments.

[–] flamingo_pinyata@sopuli.xyz 12 points 1 day ago

Also the definition was formalized. Grouping certain human traits and calling it by a common name wasn't a thing before.

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