this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2024
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Why can't I just buy it without being charged for preinstalled spyware? (lemmy.world)
submitted 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) by TimeNaan@lemmy.world to c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world
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Image description:

Shopping for a laptop as a Linux user:

Screenshot from the Simpsons where Otto is talking to Marge and Homer standing next to a window in their house with a caption "Oh wow, windows!... I don't think I can afford this place."

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[–] Rikj000@discuss.tchncs.de 74 points 6 months ago (37 children)

I hate that nowadays everything comes with pre-installed spyware and that they charge you for it makes it even worse..

  • Want a TV? Suck on our Android TV with Google spyware embedded
  • Want a phone? Get our Android with Google spyware, or go for an Apple with Apple spyware
  • Want a computer? We'll shove Windows spyware down your throat

Ffs I just want devices that I own to not spy on me, and I can't even buy them anymore..

Each of them require flashing a custom privacy respecting OS onto it,
and that's a real problem..

[–] Samsy@lemmy.ml 13 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (6 children)

Nice list, I would add routers (not everywhere). But for example here in Germany you get a device from your ISP for free but don't try to change the DNS settings because your ISP wants to know what you are doing online.

Only alternative is a fritzbox which is highly overpriced for a simple router+modem. >200€ for a cablerouter.

I had to buy a used fritzbox, need to nearly hacked them for activating the deactivated bridge-mode and put a cheap Asus router on it with flashed openwrt.

I needed 6 months for the whole setup.

[–] HappyRedditRefugee@lemm.ee 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Unless you are using DoH or DoT it does not matter which DNS server you have configured on the modem/router, DNS requests are sent as plain text so your ISP can still see them and will know which sites you are seeing.

OpenWRT with DoH or DoT bypasses that problem, alternatively a VPN with custom DNS. Also a Pihole or Adguard instance never hurt. But at the end of the day someome owns those DNS servers and will likely log your use.

[–] Samsy@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 months ago

That's exactly my setup. Openwrt + stubby + DoT. Which points to an external AdguardHome + unbound. Wireguard is also used.

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[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 7 points 6 months ago (2 children)

The tv thing is the most insane. Like I grew up used to knowing phones are all tapped and computers too. But I pay to not have ads on tv but my tv itself has ads. And I can run a Linux computer and we’re getting somewhere with spyware and ad free phones even if it’s not yet where I need to switch, but tv, fucking hell

[–] Baku@aussie.zone 8 points 6 months ago (1 children)

It's not even the spyware or ads that piss me off the most about "smart" TVs, it's how they always seem to lag to fucking shit. I've mostly used lower end ones, but even a few mid range ones I've used are still laggy pieces of shit that obviously have the cheapest components imaginable. Which for a normal tv is fine, expected even! But on a "smart" tv where to do anything at all you have to dig through their shitty, counter intuitive "smart" menu, it just sucks.

And then you want to watch some normal tv after a long day and the fuckin thing won't let you because it demands it installs an update, which thanks to those cheap components, takes far longer than it should

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[–] anon5621@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Unfortunately it's concept which were in the past.Nowdays u are not owning ur device,you are actually just renting it. Unless new laws are passed that will prohibit such a business model.

[–] Rikj000@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 6 months ago (2 children)

I do own my devices.

Companies want you to not own the devices, and rent them through a subscription model,
however I refuse to do that.

If you do that / fall for that,
then you're part of the problem making such a future a reality..

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[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago (3 children)

I build computers and sell them, and will put whatever OS you want on them, except Windows. If you want windows, I take $150 off the price of the tower.

[–] Rikj000@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 6 months ago

I'm a developer, modder and privacy advocate, I know how to put a custom OS on my hardware, but I'm a minority.

However the average joe does not,
and they, the majority,
are forced into using spyware.

Often without them even knowing so,
which is a true issue

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[–] markstos@lemmy.world 46 points 6 months ago (3 children)

Buy a Framework, System76 or something else with first class Linux support.

[–] TimeNaan@lemmy.world 49 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (10 children)

Love their concept but I just can't afford it. My problem isn't finding a machine that works well with Linux. It's finding a machine that I can afford. And the stupid windows fee for something I will immediately uninstall is a big deal to me.

[–] lud@lemm.ee 21 points 6 months ago (2 children)

I think most Lenovo and dell computers provide you with the option to go without an OS or something like Ubuntu.

[–] TimeNaan@lemmy.world 17 points 6 months ago

Only select top-end models in my country unfortunately.

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[–] TheHobbyist@lemmy.zip 7 points 6 months ago (5 children)

Have you considered second hand? I'm not talking second hand specifically for framework or other mentioned brands, but just in general.

I feel it is not yet normalized to consider second hand for electronics, yet you can find quite some good deals. Not everything needs to be bought new, especially if you are price sensitive. One generation or 2 older hardware bought second hand can be better and cheaper than new.

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[–] chronicledmonocle@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

Framework has their 11th gen Intel laptops right now as a barebones for $499 USD from B-stock, new components, if that interests you.

Otherwise, Chromebooks that you can flash replacement coreboot are another good option.

[–] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 4 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Is the 500usd for the full computer? I got confused before that some of the cheapest configurations didn't have everything needed to make the computer, like RAM and storage.

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[–] TimeNaan@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Unfortunately Framework doesn't retail in my country and that's the requirement. But that does sound very enticing, I'll keep an eye on their B-stock. Thanks!

As for the flashed chromebooks that sounds like a pretty cool weekend project but I need something with a little more power.

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[–] FoxBJK@midwest.social 11 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Dell sells Linux laptops too don’t they?

[–] Rooki@lemmy.world 14 points 6 months ago (4 children)

Every laptop manufacturers sell linux laptops they just dont know it.

Framework is a bit different, it has direct support for their hardware drivers on many linux distros and endorses linux to be installed on their laptops.

[–] FoxBJK@midwest.social 13 points 6 months ago (1 children)

OP doesn’t want to pay the extra $120 for an OS he’s never gonna use. Yes everyone sells a Linux laptop but there’s a few companies that won’t charge you for Windows on top of that.

[–] TimeNaan@lemmy.world 10 points 6 months ago

Thank you, it seems the point of this meme is lost on some Lemmings :D

[–] Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works 8 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Right . . . but Dell ship select models with Ubuntu preinstalled, these certified devices come with their OEM package which has support for their drivers, etc. and obvs by selling them with Linux, they are endorsing it on their select models of laptops as well.

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[–] redcalcium@lemmy.institute 27 points 6 months ago

"Your laptop's sticker price already includes windows license fee. You're welcome!"

-- Microsoft

[–] Nyanix@lemmy.ca 26 points 6 months ago (4 children)

Not to be that "aktchually" guy, but Microsoft actually ends up paying OEM's to ship with Windows, in order to drive costs down to be more affordable than competitors. You can still reimage with Linux, which I know, is an extra step from it shipping with Linux, but in a wild turn of events, we can thank Microsoft for driving down the prices of our to-be-Linux machines ;)

[–] ICastFist@programming.dev 16 points 6 months ago

I think that was only true back in the 90s, when there were still other OSes to compete against Windows, like OS/2, Solaris and BeOS late in the decade. Once Microsoft effectively dominated the consumer PC market (2000s?), they turned around to threaten to never do business with OEMs that dared to bundle competitors' OS. They also did something similar in Japan, which destroyed NEC (who created the PC-88 and PC-98, the most popular 80s and early 90s computers there) dominance.

[–] OfficerBribe@lemm.ee 13 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Have never seen this as a consumer though. I remember buying a laptop 10 years ago without OS since it was cheaper than same model with preinstalled Windows. Checked a random laptop and same still applies, version with Windows costs 30 eur more in my local webshop for what seems to be the same model with same specifications (No English available, use translate if needed):

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[–] bitwolf@lemmy.one 8 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

This route does still count as a Windows sale and you still pay for the license.
So if the manufacturer offers a "no os" option, rather than any Linux option, it's still a better choice than "Windows" if you know you will reimage to something else anyway.

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[–] michael_palmer@lemmy.sdf.org 9 points 6 months ago (1 children)

In Europe, laptops without an operating system (often referred to as DOS installed) are available. Prices start from 300 EUR.

[–] TimeNaan@lemmy.world 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I am in Europe but these laptops are rare in the low price end unfortunately.

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[–] cyberwolfie@lemmy.ml 8 points 6 months ago

My laptop came preinstalled with Linux :)

[–] TimeSquirrel@kbin.social 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Friend: "What's your system specs?"

Me: "12-core Ryzen CPU, 64GB RAM, 3080ti GPU"

F: "Nice. What games do you play?"

M: "Games...? Is that what else people do with these things?"

[–] dan@upvote.au 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

These days it's not uncommon to have a powerful GPU just for AI acceleration.

[–] Aux@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Or for photo editing. Or video editing. Or CAD work. Or a lot more stuff.

[–] dan@upvote.au 4 points 6 months ago (3 children)

Are modern iGPUs not powerful enough for these tasks? The UHD 770 is pretty powerful, especially for video encoding/decoding (it can transcode 8+ 4K streams simultaneously)

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[–] ikidd@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago

Last three laptops I've bought, the Windows install never saw the light of day.

[–] ghostface@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Check out system76

https://system76.com/

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[–] wfh@lemm.ee 6 points 6 months ago

Here in the EU there are a few companies selling rebranded Tongfang or Clevo barebones without an OS. Some are Linux-oriented like Tuxedo, Slimbook or LaptopmetLinux, some are general-purpose or gaming oriented like Schenker/XMG.

Slimbook Elemental 14 start at around 600€, Tuxedo Aura 14 starts at around 840€ for what looks to be the same SKU but a bit more storage.

Where are you located and what's your budget ? It might help point you in the right direction.

[–] ordellrb@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago (5 children)

buy from the official website, you can select "no operating system" there. (did that last time from Lenovo's site)

[–] dion_starfire@lemm.ee 6 points 6 months ago

They only offer that option for some models. For everything else, you have to select the Windows version with no added cost, and just eat the loss of the baked-in Windows tax.

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[–] Matriks404@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Buy used ThinkPad.

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