Dragging out these people's executions is cruel.
However you never want to kill an innocent person
this post was submitted on 28 Feb 2024
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Execution is cruel.
Think about knowing your death date. Feeling it approach day by day. You're out of appeals. You're definitely going to be killed and on a specific date at a specific time and there's nothing you can do to stop it.
That is torture.
I don't care how bad your crime was, no one deserves to be tortured. Or executed by the state.
You'll be hated for such radical compassion... Better let me stand with you...
Imagine waking up one day and deciding to stalk, capture, rape and kill someone for nothing other than your pleasure.
He deserves it.
It's not a matter of whether or not he deserves it.
We have an eighth amendment to the U.S. constitution and if you're not familiar with it, this is it:
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Very simple. No cruel punishments. Regardless of whether you or anyone else feels that they deserve to be tortured.
Well torture is your definition of it, not one I agree with. I'm not American and don't know your constitution, or care to know it but it seems your own government doesn't agree with you. Regardless of whether you or anyone else feels that way.
Really? You wouldn't be tortured by knowing the exact time and date of your death and knowing that nothing you did would stop it?
Because I think I can safely say that would be torture for most people.
For most people, yes, I'd agree with.
For someone who's killed, usually multiple people, I think they view life and death a bit different to the average person. Regardless of semantics, this 'torture' isn't cruel or unusual, it's a consequence and one that is afforded to them in the interest of fairness to allow appeals etc.
As soon as the judges gavel bangs, they could be immediately shot. Would that be better?
Why even have a judge? Why not let police just kill them? Why give them a trial at all?
Simple solution. Stop executions
Ah, so incarceration for life without parole. Making the death sentence drag on for the rest of their life... That's totally not dragging out their death at all...
How can you not be able to find a vein on a man who's strapped to a chair and immobile, for several hours?
Iv cannulation can be tricky at times even for those who do it often.
I'm curious what kind of training the "volunteers with medical training" have as well... If they were trained for this specific purpose then its unlikely they've been able to practice on real humans, and practicing on a mannequin or IV trainer arm is very different from sticking a real human. Usually where I am, people who need iv training practice starting them in day surgery units. I can't see a medical clinic agreeing to let someone from a prison come in and try to practice for the purpose of getting proficient at lethal injections.
Most health care practitioners have either oaths or a code of ethics that prohibits causing harm, hence why lethal injections are so often a mess.
Perhaps it's a sneaky protest
"convicted of five murders in three states and is suspected in several more."
and:
"originally sentenced to death for the shooting deaths of John Wayne Bradford and Edward Thomas Arnold."
"in 1983, he was sentenced to death for the murder of David Dale Jensen, who was 22, disabled and serving time for a car theft when Creech beat him to death at the Idaho State Penitentiary on May 13, 1981."
"In addition to the Idaho murders, Creech has been convicted of killing both William Joseph Dean in Oregon and Vivian Grant Robinson in California in 1974. He was also charged with killing Sandra Jane Ramsamooj in Oregon that year, but the charge was later dropped in light of his other murder sentences.
In 1973, Creech was tried for the killing of 70-year-old Paul Schrader in Tucson, Arizona, but was acquitted of the crime. Authorities still believe him to be responsible for Schrader’s death, and say that Creech provided information that led them to bodies of two people near Las Vegas and one person near Baggs, Wyoming."
I'm of the opinion that the death penalty is not punitive, and it's not retributive. It's a way of telling another human being "there is no 'correcting' what you have done."
It needs to be reserved for the most monstrous of crimes and, in this case, 5 undisputed murders plus possibly 5 more? Pull the plug on this guy already. He's outstayed his welcome.
I originally upvoted you, but then I took a moment to read your comment more closely.
It needs to be reserved for the most monstrous of crimes and, in this case, 5 undisputed murders plus possibly 5 more?
No. Being convicted of 5 murders does not mean 5 undisputed murders. The primary argument against the death penalty is based on how often we incarcerate innocent or even insufficiently proven guilty people and then the only recourse is letting them out, since we have no recourse after wrongfully executing someone. Portraying the 5 murders he was convicted of as "undisputed" wilfully ignores the single biggest problem with the death penalty.
Putting him to death at 73, over 3 decades after being sentenced, can only be explained as retribution. It isn't like he is going to learn anything when he is dead.
Dude's a psychopath, save the energy for innocent people.
If we could tell for certain who was innocent or who was guilty, there might be an argument for the death penalty (although I still say that the state having the power over life and death is immoral and unethical)... but until that day, saying that someone should be subject to an unjust law because of their heinous crime is not really an equitable way of thinking about how this country should work.
And then there's the huge racial disparity.
https://www.nacdl.org/Content/Race-and-the-Death-Penalty
I realize he's as horrible as a person could be and his crime was atrocious. But that doesn't mean we should apply a law to him that is simply not evenly applied and where innocent people are given a punishment that they cannot survive. Either laws should be fair and applied fairly or they should not be laws. Wouldn't you agree?
Oh, there's absolutely no doubt that the death penalty is over-used, mis-applied, and in many cases outright racist, but I don't see that as an argument to eliminate it, it's an argument to correct it.
And, yeah, we absolutely can determine when someone is guilty.
Poster children for the death penalty:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westley_Allan_Dodd
Again, I do not deny that there have been absolutely horrible crimes committed and those people were then executed. But that does not make the law fair or equitable and unfair and non-equitable laws are simply immoral in my opinion.
If you want to argue for death penalty reform, that's fine. But why should anyone be put to death while the law is unevenly applied?
Clearly, there was no rush in this case. So reform the law first.
Can we at least agree its is right for us to allow them maximal spiritual growth before sending them on their way? Prison reform would be a very multifaceted thing beyond my intelligence alone to think up.
My belief is your death conditions are correlated to your birth conditions (karma). This is a very common worldly belief mind you. That said, we all want a future with peace and love, and letting people die in fear and anguish will only allow their future conditions to bring that fear and anguish back. I know not everyone will believe this but I swear its worth exploring.
I dream of a future where we don't end people's lives, no matter what they've done. I believe that using the death penalty as a way to scare people into behaving ignores the real reasons why people do bad things in the first place. I also think that there are some people who, because of the way their brain works, can't be stopped by fear of punishment.
Looking at what Jesus, Buddha, or great thinkers like Marcus Aurelius said, they all teach us to be kind and understand that everyone deserves respect, even those who might seem broken or lost. To me, it feels wrong to use someone as a warning to others because it forgets that every person has value.
This is just how I see things, based on what I believe and what matters to me. I know it's a big, complicated topic, and not everyone will see it the same way.
When I was 12 I hid under the couch while my Grandpa brutally murdered my grandma overnight. Between around 11:00 pm and about 4:00am He hit her with with the coat tree, threw her down the stairs, whipped her with his belt until she bled, took her outside and tied her up behind his car and dragged her up and down the road before finally drowning her in a 5 gallon bucket of water. I was 12, and I watched.
For 22 years I went and fought his parole, every 5 years from the time I was 17 until I was 34 I had to go look that monster in the eye.
He swore if he ever got out he'd put the rest of the family in the ground too.
For 22 years I lived in constant, overbearing, fear of him doing the same things to me, my mom, my dad, my brother, and my cousins, that he did to my grandma that night.
The BIGGEST disservice ever done to my family by the state of Ohio is letting that horrible man live for 22 years. He should have been gassed on day 1.
And this is why victims do not get be the arbiters of justice, nor should they.
This is why we have judges and juries. But enforcing a death penalty generally causes more trauma than it serves justice.
This is why over 70% of the world’s countries have abolished or de facto abolished capital punishment. It doesn’t work, it doesn’t serve justice, and it only continues the cycle of violence.
Just to give you an idea of how backwards the United States is on this issue:
Since 1990, at least 11 countries have executed offenders who were minors (under the age of 18 or 21) at the time the crime was committed, which is a breach of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, ratified by all countries but the United States. These are: China, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, South Sudan, Sudan, the United States, and Yemen.[11][12][13] In the United States, this ended in 2005 with the Supreme Court case Roper v. Simmons, in Nigeria in 2015 by a law,[14] and in Saudi Arabia in 2020 by royal decree.
Edit: I can’t claim to understand how you feel about your experience and what happened to you, which is why I didn’t address it. I hope that you and your loved ones have access to therapy and the ability to live your lives in peace.
This is why victims are not on the juries of their perpetrators. If we allow feelings and emotions to get in the way of a fair unbiased justice system, it’s not the way we should do things.
I am sorry for your story that is horrible. I have not had to deal with things like this and can't say with certainty how I'd react; so I'll let you to your opinion un-judged by me. I will consider your story in my perspective when I meditate on such things Chainweasel, honestly...
I do believe all peace is interconnected like a web, and even if you have 1 million murderers locked up forever, if they themselves don't have access to any peace or spiritual growth they will effect all of us, we are more than physical bodies and minds, we are sensitive emotional creatures.
Uh there's a lot to learn from Marcus Aurelius but I wouldn't look to him for unwavering compassion.
I don't see it as a way of scaring people. I see it as telling a criminal "there's no coming back from what you did."
Some crimes are irredeemable, killing 5 people without question and arguably 5 more, all in separate incidents, falls under that.
Do you have any spiritual framework you draw this from? Where did you learn that there are things to which a sentient being can not come back from? I understand we have different perspectives now I'd like to see what our differing principals or values may be that allow us different thoughts.
Nope, it comes from having seen monsters.
Don't waste the time on them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westley_Allan_Dodd
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Weaver_III
The list goes on. Some crimes are beyond a "correctional institute".
Lets explore how we got to different places.
We know things three ways I see. We know how to breath by just "knowing" like a bird knows to make a nest. We know by "experience" like touching a hot stove will burn. We know by "reasoning" such as this other thing cooks and looks hot it will burn me too.
Your experience of seeing monsters lead you to reason there is no value or redemption. Is this correct Call out if I'm wrong...
My knowing comes from just knowing which was cultivated through spiritual pursuits amd mediation. I could try and further explain but I'd need to present full Buddhist perspective.
Very different knowledge we have. It would be hard to talk on this issue, none of my spiritual explanations couldn't find soil in your non spiritual framework and I've not experienced monsters like you and hence lack experience to relate well.