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Probably going to be an unpopular take online but... A lot of the most chronically single people I know are very into videogames. Not sure which way the causation runs or maybe it's a self reinforcing cycle but there does seem to be a relationship.
The folks I know tend not to be the angry incel type but I could very easily see a pathway that goes something like: video games are cheaper and easier than putting yourself out there, thus you isolate, but isolation kind of sucks and no one likes to blame themselves, so the "manosphere" and it's precursors are there to tell you it's actually women/wokeness/the Libs that are responsible for your angry singledom..." To me, I see them at least partially a factor in the hard gender split in politics these days.
The timing also kind of maps out. Video games have moved from niche to one of the most lucrative entertainment industries. The generation of young men raised by really quality games was coming to electoral age just about 2016 and boy, did things start going g off the rails.
I'm not blaming everything on videogames and do play some myself but I do wonder if they've contributed to the problem.
Definitely. I'm pushing 50 and know that, had games been more sophisticated, realistic, and able to be played online in my teens, I'd have struggled not to let that consume me. However, as it happened, the allure of gigs, beer, nights out, and girls didn't really have much competition with the likes of Street Fighter 2.
On one hand, I definitely feel I've missed out on that gaming experience and to this day don't have that shared interest that my younger colleagues have with each other. On the other, I see younger guys at work who are just regular dudes but have no family, friends, or partners outside work or their online world. And by younger, I mean pushing 40. We're talking about decades where their free time has been spent mostly gaming.
To each their own—please don't get prickly if you feel seen or think I'm being condescending. I can absolutely see how that can happen, and if you're cool with that, then that's all that matters. It's just not the way I personally would want to live from my current perspective, although I know that had I been born a decade later, I'd probably be in the same boat.
I think it's got more to do with the manosphere being an easily accessible community. There is almost no bar to entry, because they just need bodies to grift. You don't need to pass a vibe check, you don't need to have any sort of social skills. Matter of fact, failing to pass a vibe check and having no social skills make you an ideal recruit.
Manosphere is a huge part. I just think that the impressive improvements in video games have increased the pool of lonely young men on whom the manosphere preys.
As a crude example, I had surgery and finished Persona 5 while recovering. Mentioned that to a coworker when I returned and he was stoked and talked about his multiple playthroughs on that and his experience with the others in the series. With a full time job, that's so very many weeks worth of time just devoted to a video game instead of meeting people, socializing, finding a partner etc.
Correlation vs. causation.
I think it's a lot more likely that people who have little success meeting people, socializing, and finding partners are turning to videogames, as that's a reasonably cheap mostly solo hobby.
Personally, if I'm not playing videogames, I'm out sailing. Not socializing.
Absolutely, there's definitely folks who were already not good at socializing turning to video games. Buuut, I think the cheapness, ubiquity and quality have all improved so much that it has become a much easier alternative than it was in the past.
Like, if you lower the price of cigarettes, many who smoke those cheaper smokes would have smoked anyway. But as the price drops, it's easier for those marginal smokers to continue to do so and for new ones to start. (You had to be pretty dedicated to suffer through Ultima VI etc.)
And the timing also kind of makes sense; for the last couple of decades there's been a marked decrease in teenagers and young adults having sex. I assume part is the ubiquity of porn but I can't imagine teenagers are just getting less horny...
Why not?
Never thought about it like that! It's probably just like how so many under 30s living with their parents these days isn't a sign of distress, they probably just love their parents more than every other generation!
What fascinating insights you have.
I asked "why not?" to a specific assertion. Teenagers getting less horny. I think it's entirely reasonable that this is the case, now that we have endocrine disrupting chemicals being dumped into the environment.
Yes, people not having money to spend don't go out as much. That is not the fault of videogames, that is the fault of capitalism and pollution.
The decline in teenage sex is very recent (last couple of decades) whereas endocrine disrupting chemicals have been dumped for decades and decades prior to that.
This seems like realllllllly motivated reasoning on your part.
Okay. So if videogames are to blame, why are videogames so special? Why didn't this collapse when books became cheap and available? That's a solo hobby. Why didn't it collapse when cards became available? Plenty of solo cars games.
Also, data shows that sperm counts have been dropping since the 70s, and native birthrates have been below replacement since the 80s. It's not a recent trend at all, it's just that people are starting to notice.
Do you read as much as you game? Do you really think most people find books and video games equally appealing?
You're conflating fertility and teens having sex.
The drop off in teen sex is way more recent than either of those, started in the last decade or two.
This really seems like ever more frantic motivated reasoning.
I read more than I game.
You know, accusing someone that disagrees with you of participating in bad faith once is one thing. Accusing them of participating in bad faith and desperation makes me think you once gave someone an ultimatum to pick between videogames and you, and you got dumped as a result.
Maybe you should calm down. (See?)
If you don't know what something like motivated reasoning means, maybe check before you start complaining about being accused of bad faith arguments?
I say desperate because your "arguments" have gotten progressively sillier. Maybe you really don't know about endocrine chemicals and how long they've been around but seriously comparing the addictive/time suck nature of video games to books is utterly nonsensical.
(And no, I haven't dated a gamer. I and the folks I date tend to spend our time outside. Though it would be a marvel for gender equality if I had to give some nice lady a video game ultimatum!)
If I'm being honest, I'm pretty sure you've decided videogames are to blame and have literally no interest in opposing opinions. That is motivated reasoning.
You are rejecting anything that doesn't fit your worldview outright. You don't think books can be as addictive as videogames, so you just reject that I spend more time reading books than playing games. Then you call me silly for suggesting it. You are obviously here in bad faith.
There is no point discussing anything with you.
By bringing evidence and time lines? Like what, I should've agreed that endocrine disrupting chemics are to blame despite being around for decades before the fall in teenage sex?
Or I'm supposed to seriously believe that reading is as common among teens and youth as books? Seriously? If you have any teacher friends, you might bring forward this uhh, interesting idea. Just be ready for some laughter and to explain that yes,it was a serious question.
I mean, on books being as common as books, is that actually a serious thought? Maybe google for half a second?
That didn't happen? Believe it or not, you're not every or even average youth. Weird huh?
Considering they directly affect hormonal development, yes. It would take approximately a generation for the effects to begin. Probably more than that for the effects to become noticeable. Which lines up with the data pretty well, considering rates of sex have been dropping steadily since the 80s. Your assertion that that happened "in the last decade or two" is just you being wrong.
As far as books, you asked me a specific question: Do I read more than I game? I said yes. You said that was stupid and evidence of me being silly. Don't ask for an anecdote and then treat it as data.
And yes, the fact that you are repeatedly using the phrase "motivated reasoning" pretty much out of the blue makes me think you've got some guilty conscience going on. Feel free to have a bad day, Jack Thompson.
I kind of tuned out after PS2. Where would you put the dividing line for games of sufficient quality to act as a society-wide sedative? GTA4? Or would it be more social COD games?
and, yeah, there is a self-reinforcing cycle to manosphere ideology that's really hard to break out of. guys go in thinking women are all gold digging bitches, and--surprise!--nobody wants to sleep with them, which just reinforces their belief, while simultaneously absolving themselves of needing to grow personally.
I'm going to date myself here but mid 90s and earlier games were fairly niche. There were definitely folks who played them a lot but today, I don't think it's entirely unusual for a kid to have spent a weekend gaming.
I don't think there was a hard dividing line but as much as I loved say, Rebel Assault, you couldn't really throw hundreds of hours into it.
I was hoping to maybe draw in some more current gamers. Like my last major time suck was Just Cause 2, but it it had very repetitive game loop that you just repeated different places. I never thought, "Wow, I got a lot accomplished playing Just Cause 2 all day."