this post was submitted on 05 Aug 2023
225 points (98.3% liked)

News

23266 readers
4469 users here now

Welcome to the News community!

Rules:

1. Be civil


Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.


2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.


Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.


3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.


Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.


4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.


Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.


5. Only recent news is allowed.


Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.


6. All posts must be news articles.


No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.


7. No duplicate posts.


If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.


8. Misinformation is prohibited.


Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.


9. No link shorteners.


The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.


10. Don't copy entire article in your post body


For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

A federal judge has blocked a new Illinois law that allows the state to penalize anti-abortion counseling centers if they use deception to interfere with patients seeking the procedure.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] FlowVoid@midwest.social 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

A preliminary injunction is appropriate if the plaintiffs are very likely to succeed. Otherwise you or I could block any new law by endlessly "preserving the status quo" with a stream of lawsuits.

So if you think that the preliminary junction is appropriate, then you must agree with the judge that the law very likely violates the First Amendment.

[–] charonn0@startrek.website 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

On the face of it, it probably does. Whether it actually does will require a careful legal analysis of the law's intent, scope, and whether there are alternatives that the state could have used.

This does not mean I approve of the plaintiffs' speech. This does not mean I disapprove. It means that I value the first amendment and understand it, and so do not see a problem in how it's been applied in this case so far.

I'm discussing technicalities not arguing the merits of their case. If that's not the sort of discussion you're interested in then I suggest you find someone else.

[–] FlowVoid@midwest.social -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I understand the technicalities.

I am simply pointing out that a preliminary injunction is not issued by routine in cases like this. Therefore, it is newsworthy rather than "clickbait".

Furthermore, it strongly indicates how the case will ultimately be decided. So if you agree with the injunction, then you should agree with the plaintiffs in this case. If you disagree with the plaintiffs, then you have good reason to disagree with the injunction. Therefore, some people are rightfully very concerned about this news.

That is all. I am not interested in arguing the merits, either.

[–] charonn0@startrek.website 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The article is clickbaity by being vague, not because the subject is not newsworthy.

And a preliminary injunction is routine if strict scrutiny should be applied. I agree that it probably should be applied based on the general characteristics of the law, and yeah the law will probably fall short of that standard and as such it ought to be struck down, but that does not in any way imply that I agree with the plaintiffs speech.

[–] FlowVoid@midwest.social 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I didn't say you agreed with the plaintiff's speech, I said you agreed with the plaintiffs. Namely, that the law should be struck down.

By arguing that the law ought to be struck down, you are arguing the merits despite your protest earlier. In which case, there are plenty of restrictions on commercial speech that are in keeping with the First Amendment. For example, Elon Musk was sanctioned because of his speech regarding Tesla stock.

The First Amendment is not some get-out-of-jail card that allows commercial entities to say whatever they want, particularly if they are being deceptive. And strict scrutiny does not apply to commercial speech. That's why there is an entire federal agency, the FTC, whose mission includes regulation of commercial speech.

If you think these plaintiffs should be allowed to decieve potential clients because of the 1st Amendment that's your prerogative, but plenty of legal scholars would disagree.

[–] charonn0@startrek.website 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

By arguing that the law ought to be struck down

I'm saying it probably falls short of the standard and if so it ought to be struck down. If you can't accept that I'm being sincere when I say that's my whole fucking point, then I don't know what else to say.

[–] FlowVoid@midwest.social -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I don't doubt your sincerity. But I think your legal analysis is wrong.

The correct standard here is not strict scrutiny, it is intermediate scrutiny. This is a much more permissive standard that applies to all commercial speech. And it allows restrictions on what one can say, in order to prevent deceptive practices like those I described.

The Supreme Court described their approach to commercial speech in 1980 (my emphasis):

At the outset, we must determine whether the expression is protected by the First Amendment. For commercial speech to come within that provision, it at least must concern lawful activity and not be misleading.

The Illinois law bans deceptive speech by certain companies trying to gain clients, and therefore it does not violate the First Amendment.

[–] charonn0@startrek.website 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Actually, it's your legal analysis that is wrong. Because your analysis begs the very question that the court is trying to answer: is their speech protected?

[–] FlowVoid@midwest.social 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The answer is right in the quote by the Supreme Court. Commercial speech is not protected if it's misleading. So by definition, a law that bans deceptive speech is constitutional.

In the case of these plaintiffs, maybe their speech is deceptive and maybe it isn't. That's up to a jury to determine. But either way, the law stands.

In other words, it's entirely possible that their speech is not deceptive but someone else's is deceptive. The law would only apply to the latter.

[–] charonn0@startrek.website 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You're assuming facts that have yet to be adjudicated.

[–] FlowVoid@midwest.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If the relevant facts are yet to be adjudicated, then there was no basis for an injunction against this law.

[–] charonn0@startrek.website -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Unless, of course, it were preliminary.

[–] FlowVoid@midwest.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A preliminary injunction must be based on the strong likelihood that the plaintiffs will prevail.

If there are not any relevant facts yet, then there is likewise no basis even for a preliminary injunction.

[–] charonn0@startrek.website 0 points 1 year ago

Who said the facts don't exist?