this post was submitted on 18 May 2024
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The occupied Palestinians have a legal right to struggle against their occupiers “by all available means, including armed struggle.”: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184801/
Furthermore, As an Occupier, Israel Has No Right to ‘Self-Defense’.
Look at you, replying to comments then getting mad and deleting them again
Genocide support should be removed.
“Hamas is also bad” != Genocide support.
Don’t mischaracterize what’s being said. However you don’t know what was said, because it was removed shortly after an admin of the instance responded - which is the point.
“The events of October 7th, 2023, must also be addressed, or else any morally-superior pronouncements are going nowhere either fast or slow, any speed you choose is equally pointless. The victims of Palestine are cannon fodder for both Hamas and Israel” is an excellent statement with a lot of truth, and speaks to the nature of Hamas as an organization as well as the victimization of the palestinatian population.
Hamas is a result of Israel, pretending it spontaneously popped into existance as a means to legitimize the Israeli terrorist state is genocide denial.
I, nor the above user did that though, did we? Excusing the actions of one group entirely because of the actions of another is what leaves to an inevitable cycle of violence.
Israel is a fascist, western colonial state forced upon the palestination population. They hide behind antisemitism and support from western countries as an excuse to implement their own version of manifest destiny.
Hamas is a brutal, extremist organization that was born out of incredibly poor conditions, but they’re still extremists, and Abrahamic theological extremists at that- something that has plagued humanity for thousands of years.
For the sake of rhetoric, let’s say Israel stops receiving western support-as they should-and Hamas gains access to the same resources and receives a military advantage. Then what? The genocide shifts and starts going the other direction?
I don’t have good answers to this, but there is nuance to the discussion and deleting comments to that affect is a bad look.
Decolonization is not genocide. Full stop.
“The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." (Article 15) - the Hamas Covenant
I agree with decolonization. Now think through the ramifications.
Sounds like a jihad I can get behind, considering "Jews" refers to the zionist entity and not Jews in general.
Oh so you do support genocide
“Jews” in the context refers to any Jewish population occupying what Hamas considers the holy land.
The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)
We’ve already seen Hamas doesn’t exactly discriminate between Zionist and non-Zionist Jewish peoples.
Why do you think Hamas would genocide Israel?
The “death to Israel” part of their whole platform
They’re extremist Suni Muslims
Yes, because Israel has been committing genocide upon them.
Yes
So are you for or against genocide here? Or are you what .ml refers to as a “reactionary”?
They’re still an extremist organization that wants to genocide them back.
Their motives make sense, but don’t pretend Hamas is all sunshine and rainbows
I'm against genocide, that's why I am in favor of a one state solution.
I never once pretended Hamas was sunshine and rainbows, and that's incredibly dishonest. I simply stated that Hamas and the rest of Palestine hates Israel for their aparthied and genocide. Remove the Aparthied and Genocide, and we are good to go.
Do you think that if Israel did a total 180, Palestinians would still want violent destruction of Israel?
Additionally, I don't think you know what a "reactionary" is if that's how you're using it.
Yes. Hamas is fighting a holy war, explicitly.
A one state solution is good in theory, but the reality is those people hate each other, they’ve always hated each other. There has been never ending conflict there since before Israel existed. That part of the world has been completely shredded by Abrahamic faiths for as long as we’ve been writing shit down.
So you're in favor of vibes-based solutions, rather than taking the practical approach of dismantling the aparthied state and giving everyone democratic control, got it.
No, I really wish you’d stop coming up with different straw man arguments in every comment.
The “practical approach” won’t work when you have two competing theocratic states. Dissolving Israel won’t make Hamas go away. Making Hamas go away won’t make Israel any less expansionist.
I just said I don’t know what a good solution would be, I just don’t see one that doesn’t inevitably devolve into violence. Again.
The solution is to dismantle Israel as a genocidal aparthied state and have a single, democratic state take its place where Palestinians and Israelis alike are simply equal citizens.
I suggest you look up the history of Israel and Palestine. A One State solution is the only viable long-term solution.
And the animosity between the two populations will just evaporate over night, right?
Nope, but it will over time.
Like I said, you really need to do more investigation on this issue. As it stands, you just "both sides" the issue.
It’s like you haven’t read a single word of what I’ve said.
“The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." (Article 15) - The Hamas Covenant
Did you know it’s possible to acknowledge multiple facts at a time? This kind of theocratically driven hatred doesn’t really go away, we’ve seen that repeated all throughout history
I've read every word you've said. I was being charitable.
The hatred Palestinians have for Israelis is largely due to the actual genocide being committed against them. Religious extremism is lowered via industrialization and building up of the productive forces, modernizing and improving education.
This we have seen repeated all throughout history.
Again, go do your reading.
Alright, let’s put on our thinking caps!
UN peacekeepers move in to quell the violence, provide humanitarian aid to Palestinian civilians, and set up a safe zone surrounding Gaza to prevent the Israeli military from continuing further attacks.
What do you think happens next?
The same issues repeat themselves as long as Israel exists as an aparthied state and Palestinians the target of ethnic cleansing.
Israel must be abolished and a secular single state must replace it.
No, I’m specifically asking you- immediately after stopping the conflict by force, what happens?
Hamas is just like “aight bet peace out” ?
Zionist populations are like “oh ok that’s cool we’ll stop now”
How do you maintain military control until the tension subsides? How long will that be, generations? Who maintains the peace, the US?
What do you do? Deport the Jewish population? To where?
Do you fight Hamas? Do you ally with them?
Think through any part of what you’re saying, there’s almost 100 years of history here
Pretty simple, abolish Israel and replace Israel and Hamas with a secular, democratic and equal state.
Would you like to address any of the other questions above? Or is everyone going to just sing kumbaya?
The US has no intention of stopping genocide or aparthied, keeping a fascist ethno-state propped up by the US allows them to keep a tight leash on the Middle East.
The UN could go in and help establish a new state. It would happen gradually, with demilitarization of both Israel and Palestine. The IDF would have to be abolished first and foremost.
People like you are proof that free speech is a terrible idea.
Lemmygrad user, right?
Damn straight.
Authoritarianism is fine, as long as it’s your guys.
Worked out in the past right?
…right?
Raised impoverished feudal nations into places with the highest standards of living to exist on Earth and is currently outcompeting the global hegemon. So yeah, it's worked excellently.
Just so I can properly understand what you’re talking about, are we talking about China? Russia? The USSR?
China is maybe the only one that fits some of that description, particularly with the belt and road initiative. Which isn’t even particularly good, it’s designed to trap developing nations into a perpetual debt cycle. Unless you can provide specific examples?
Outcompeting on what fronts? China does have a remarkable EV market and enormous manufacturing capabilities, but both of those are predicated on extremely low paid workers and resources taken from developing nations.
Not that the same thing doesn’t happen in the US, mind you. Think it’s more of economic thing than any particular political ideology on the scale of world governments
Keeping my answer limited to quality of life under socialism, I'm stealing an info dump from comrade @yogthos@lemmy.ml
shit ton of text
That's fascinating given that communism has worked literally every time it's been tried. The quality of life, food security, education, employment in communist countries all improved drastically after revolutions. Let's take a look at USSR as an example.Russia went from a backwards agrarian society where people travelled by horse and carriage to being the first in space in the span of 40 years. Russia showed incredible growth after the revolution that surpassed the rest of the world:
USSR provided free education to all citizens resulting in literacy rising from 33% to 99.9%:
USSR doubled life expectancy in just 20 years. A newborn child in 1926-27 had a life expectancy of 44.4 years, up from 32.3 years thirty years before. In 1958-59 the life expectancy for newborns went up to 68.6 years. the Semashko system of the USSR increased lifespan by 50% in 20 years. By the 1960's, lifespans in the USSR were comparable to those in the USA:
Quality of nutrition improved after the Soviet revolution, and the last time USSR had a famine was in 1940s. CIA data suggests they ate just as much as Americans after WW2 period while having better nutrition:
USSR moved from 58.5-hour work weeks to 41.6 hour work weeks (-0.36 h/yr) between 1913 and 1960:
USSR averaged 22 days of paid leave in 1986 while USA averaged 7.6 in 1996:
In 1987, people in the USSR could retire with pension at 55 (female) and 60 (male) while receiving 50% of their wages at a at minimum. Meanwhile, in USA the average retirement age was 62-67 and the average (not median) retiree household in the USA could expect $48k/yr which comes out to 65% of the 74k average (not median) household income in 2016:
GDP took off after socialism was established and then collapsed with the reintroduction of capitalism:
The Soviet Union had the highest physician/patient ratio in the world. USSR had 42 doctors per 10,000 population compared to 24 in Denmark and Sweden, and 19 in US:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0735675784900482 (sci-hub for access)
USSR defeated a smallpox epidemic in a matter of 19 days https://www.rbth.com/history/331857-how-ussr-defeated-black-smallpox
The Social Consequences of Soviet Immunization Policies https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/1997-812-03g-Hoch.pdf
Professor of Economic History, Robert C. Allen, concludes in his study without the 1917 revolution is directly responsible for rapid growth that made the achievements listed above possilbe:
Study demonstrating the steady increase in quality of life during the Soviet period (including under Stalin). Includes the fact that Soviet life expectancy grew faster than any other nation recorded at the time:
A large study using world bank data analyzing the quality of life in Capitalist vs Socialist countries and finds overwhelmingly at similar levels of development with socialism bringing better quality of life:
This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development.
Finally, let's take a look at how people who lived under communism feel now that they got a taste of capitalism?
The Free market paradise goes East chapters in Blackshirts and Reds details some more results of the transition to capitalism.
glad to see it's coming in handy :)
Thanks, I’ve read some of yogthos’s stuff. Give me a little bit to get home and comfortable and I’ll read through this one so I can give a thought out response