this post was submitted on 23 Aug 2023
669 points (96.9% liked)
Technology
58173 readers
3945 users here now
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related content.
- Be excellent to each another!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
Approved Bots
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Setting aside anything related to Musk, Tesla really doesn’t seem to be staying competitive.
Cybertruck (and the “indestructible” window press conference) is probably the easiest example. Years of attempted hype that haven’t paid off in a meaningful manner, while rivals have been releasing in-class competition. Anyone can see that’s a problem.
Tesla cars used to be pretty revolutionary, now they’re in an entirely different era that’s filling with exciting EV alternatives around every corner. Yet Tesla style still looks the same. The shoddy construction is still around and becoming more widespread knowledge. They’re failing to attract their target audience due to a long series of missteps. More problems.
Not to mention that Tesla was downright overpriced at its height. It’s a fraction of the volume yet made other automaker valuations look minuscule. The logic for that was never there.
Besides Musk…it’s the fact they are still using the same design from 10+ years ago. When I see a tesla, I can’t tell the difference between the S & 3 or the X & Y. They made one car and scaled it in their software. All 4 cars are due for a redesign and they don’t need to all look identical. And they need to figure out how to actually assemble them without being shit.
Nothing wrong with that if it’s successful. VW used the same design language for the Beetle/Van/Truck for ages.
Same design language and copy cats are different. I can clearly make the difference of a Jetta/Passat or Civic/Accord. They obviously share a similar design but are definitely their own. Tesla’s on the other hand, I couldn’t tell you the difference of the X or Y. They look identical. Even the sedans look damn near identical. And no other car company keeps the exact same design for 10+ years (besides Toyota and the 4Runner)
Most people can't tell a Macan from a Cayenne or a 911 from a 718, doesn't matter what enthusiasts think, normies are the people who represent the majority and they're buying the cars anyway.
Exactly people say this but then not about Mazda. Every single Mazda has the same design scheme. There's nothing wrong with that, if it works for the company fine, but like, "oh they all look the same" is invalid as a complaint against them.
Tesla has many other things you can diss on them for.
Cybertruck is a symptom of poor leadership. Maybe after it flops, Tesla will clean house.
Musk only owns about 14% of Tesla. The other stockholders should clean house of the board and CEO.
While I agree Cybertruck may have jumped the shark, I recently noticed …. After years of GM saying cylindrical batteries are not practical and pouch batteries are the only way to go, and Ultium is more advanced than anything Tesla has …. They’re redesigning EV models early to switch to cylindrical batteries like Tesla
The only reason GM (and others) tried to tout pouch cells is because there was a complete lack of cylindrical production capacity available. Tesla was using it all.
What are you going to do, say we'd rather use these other batteries but we can't, so here you go?
I am ecstatic that most of the major manufactures have finally decided to transition to prismatic and/or cylindrical.
I wouldn't even be surprised if regulations one day prevent use of pouch cells for automotive purposes.
Give it 5 - 10 years. Tesla will be a company that makes and maintains a charging station network and sells batteries to the other auto makers.
It's becoming increasingly obvious that they can't hack it in an automotive sales industry. Which is fine, frankly. I think battery manufacturing and charging network are pretty complimentary industries and provide a decent revenue stream into the future, License the charging tech to other automakers early and get some vendor lock-in going, and the company could be in it for the long haul.
They might even be able to keep making a couple EVs, to prove new charging or battery tech, much like how Google keeps making Pixel phones to essentially prove and market new Android features.
My limited understanding of the matter is that their batteries are overpriced and nothing special compared to alternatives.
The real game changer that seems to be coming down the pipeline is the solid state battery Toyota has been teasing. If they manage to bring that to market while holding important patents on the technology it's basically game over for other kinds of battery for EVs.
Toyota has been teasing this for years now. It's a bit like fusion energy at this point, always on the brink of a revolution that never comes.
Tesla makes batteries for $80/kwh. Everyone else is paying $120.
Are you referring to Tesla's 4680's or the cells that Tesla gets from Pansonic?
Re: Panasonic
Tesla's been refining their cells with Panasonic for quite awhile and have done things like substantially reduced the cobalt used compared to others (at least as of couple years ago). I'm not sure what the differences in wh/kg are compared to others today.
Panasonic is also much more efficient at making those cells at scale which gives Tesla an edge on their cost.
Tesla has always made their own batteries (the grouping of the cells). Their battery + BMS on the other hand is substantially better than other manufacturers. They can manufacture the battery much cheaper than others, and the BMS keeps it running smoothly.
For example - The Fords Mach E performance model can't (or couldn't) even do more than a launch or two before having to throttle itself due to heat. They currently have recalls happening due to contactors having problems with heat.
Re: Tesla's 4680 Cells
Right now, they're nothing special from a wh/kg perspective, what they're main goal for them is to be substantially cheaper to manufacture than the cells other manufactures make. If you can make them for 2/3 the cost you'll have huge advantage over everyone else, and then also you don't have to pay the mark up to Panasonic or LG either.
Only time will tell if their chemistry/anode/cathode improvements will make their cells better than what other manufactures are producing now and in the future. Personally, I'd be nervous to get a 1st / 2nd gen version of these cells/batteries while they work things out.
Re: Solid state
If that ever happens and they are cost competitive to produce, then that'll be a big deal ya. What if they aren't cost competitive though?
Will you be willing to pay $10-15k more for the same range but faster charging, higher safety, and more lifecycles?
You're right though, they are the future eventually.
They have a massive head start, but that will not last.
BYD is not far behind them and VW is closing fast. 2022 EV volumes
Who else has hands free driving on local roads?
Not Tesla, FSD requires hands on at all times while stuff like Supercruise does not.
Supercruise doesn't work on local roads, drive assist does. I can keep my pinky on the wheel and give it the slightest pressure every few minutes when prompted. This is a God send in stop and go city traffic. I used to have super high stress in traffic every day, now I let the Tesla do all the stop and go braking/keeping distance and it's way less stressful
In what world does hands free include keeping your hands on the wheel?
In what world does touching your pinky on a wheel ever minute or more qualify has tightly gripping your hands at 9' and 3'oclock position. I get it you hate elon.me too. I still think the Tesla gives me a driving experience very few if not anyone else can replicate, especially on local roads. No one has been able to dispute me on that besides some dude that quoted the new Mercedes that launched this year. That sounds like Mercedes trying to keep up with tesla, not the reverse
Elon is a douche nozzle, does that make you feel better? Have you ever actually driven a Tesla thru city traffic ?
Hands-free by definition requires no hands. You are using terminology that is incorrect on the internet. Expect to be corrected.
Everything else you replied to me is you being super defensive. I never stated anything else other than what you are taking about is technically not hands-free.
Mercedes for example - and it works better than Tesla's on shitty roads.
Mercedes for example has two cars that just launched FSD this year. Vs Tesla who has 4 cars that can do autopilot for 3 years or more. Again I'm not trying to say Tesla is the best car, I'm trying to say they have differntiated features that few, if not any companies have had over the years, and yea that does not excuse their CEO from being a total douche.
Mercedes for example has two cars that just launched FSD this year on local roads. Vs Tesla who has 4 cars that can do autopilot for 3 years or more on local roads. Again I'm not trying to say Tesla is the best car, I'm trying to say they have differntiated features that few, if not any companies have had over the years, and yea that does not excuse their CEO from being a total douche.
Exactly. So many of the naysayers haven't used fsd first hand, so they don't know how close they are to solving a huge problem. And no one else is really even trying anymore. Ask a graduating senior in IT or robotics where they dream of working and it's Tesla.
If you're using FSD without your hands, you're not doing what you're explicitly supposed to be doing.
So basically you're saying that so many of the naysayers haven't used FSD the wrong (and dangerous) way.
I'm using drive assist without my feet, I can keep my pinky on the wheel and give it the slightest pressure every few minutes when prompted. This is a God send in stop and go city traffic. I used to have super high stress in traffic every day, now I let the Tesla do all the stop and go braking/keeping distance/keeping center and it's way less stressful. I know other manufacturers have drive assist but I've driven my siblings BMWs Mercedes Maseratis Jaguars Land Rovers and (unless you've got a 2024 Mercedes) none of them are as easy to use as Tesla.
I fucking hate Elon musk by the way, and I'm not a Tesla fanboy, I they do a lot of anti consumer bullshit. I just think to over correct and say the cars have nothing better to offer vs competitors is disingenuous
Again, that's not how you're supposed to use it.
Again, that still differentiates this company vs any other car. The entire argument we're having is that they don't do anything different than anyone else.