this post was submitted on 19 Jul 2024
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Meanwhile leftists: "Make sure you don't vote in a way that might keep actual fascists from power. Better the fascists win than people who will make things only mildly better!"
Exterminating Gazans makes things better?
Maybe read the meme again.
Ah, so rather than go against Trump's bad policy and do something actually GOOD for our fellow human beings, we need to stick to this compromise position where we do something almost as bad as him? Because we are more worried about losing pro genocide voters than we are about an actual genocide, or something?
I hope that you can see how the "liberal" position on this is fucking disgusting
Hello to fascism and Trump's final solution to the Palestine question, it is! Got it!
Vote Biden, obviously. His Gaza policy is still absolute dog shit. It is not complicated and pretending that anyone criticising him for it is voting for trump is dumb as fuck
Me:
You: Reasons to not vote for the candidate opposing the fascists. Arguing with anyone suggesting voting against the fascists. Swerve completely the point about how much WORSE for Gaza and the rest of the Palestinians Trump would be.
Me: Thanks leftists. /s
You claim to want to make things better for Gaza, but not if it involves putting a mark in a box, because in your view that would be going TOO FAR and going against EVERY principle you ever held dear.
You talk such a big game about Gaza and fascism, but you wouldn't stoop so low as to actually fucking vote on this issue. No, it's much more important to take up the crusade against the centrists. Thanks leftists. Great help you were in preventing the fascists from taking over the most powerful country in the world.
Grow up and live in the real world. It sucks. Please try much harder to not make it worse.
The first two words in my last response were "Vote Biden" sooooooooo.....
Sorry, yes, but it winds me up when people who claim to care about Gaza only criticise Biden and ignore Trump's vocal support for Israel's actions.
Biden is literally sending bombs to Israel and is the current president, leader of the free world, yada yada. Trump's support right now is just that, vocal. Although of course he was shitty when he was president. But that is why for me personally Biden is the one to criticise right now.
I understand why it's annoying though if it seems very one sided. But "claim to care" - I think with an ongoing genocide it's a very easy thing to care about. Why would you doubt that they care?
But there's the Leahy law, which is basically never applied to Israel but clearly makes it illegal to do so. Why does he ignore that?
Great! But firstly, it isn't working and clearly he isn't using all available leverage (e.g. Leahy). And how is veto-ing UNSC resolutions for a cease fire (and Palestinian statehood, lol) helping this, exactly? Seems like the opposite.
3 to 6 is whataboutism. It's not relevant
7 - The issue here is that you're again assuming they won't vote for Biden when actually many of us will. If such a person will vote Biden, do you believe that they care?
You're pretending to care about genocide but you dismissed everything about it that would be worse if Trump is allowed to win as irrelevant?!! You don't care at all. Liar.
I care about the genocide which is actually happening right now and Biden is aiding and supporting. That's why I'm talking about that while you chose to pivot to talking about the election. Trump being worse does not excuse Biden. Or protect him from criticism. The fact that you didn't respond on any specifics and just doubled down on this "but Trump!" whataboutism is just sad.
I didn't dismiss those points, they are just not relevant to the discussion about Biden and Gaza.
When we're taking about the election It seems like I will totally agree with you.
Sorry, correction: you’re pretending to care about genocide but you dismissed everything about it that would be worse if Trump is allowed to win as whataboutism. You don’t care at all. Liar.
YES CONGRATULATIONS YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT TRUMP.
Ok now can we talk about Biden's failure?
Cool, so you'll vote for Claudia De La Cruz of the Party for Socialism and Liberation? She's antifascist and anti-genocide, unlike Biden and Trump.
No because then I would have helped trump lead america in to fascism. If you don't think through the consequences of your actions, you get bad outcomes. Not voting for the person opposing trump leads to the worst possible outcome. It's not rocket science.
But then you're voting for genocide and eventual fascism.
No, you're voting for the one literally trying to stop the war against Gaza and voting against fascism. What did you think the republicans mean when they write "finish them" on a bomb in front of the Israelis?
Biden is committing and supplying genocide, and is fascism is already taking hold under Biden. Do you genuinely think voting for a genocidal right-winger will stop fascism? Why do you think fascism appears in the first place?
Fascism appears when people are poor and are persuaded that their problems are because of some minority group like immigrants or trans folk.
I think that Trump is being honest when he says he'll be dictator on day one, and I think Nikki Hayley is very sincerely calling for the eradication of the Palestinian people when she writes "finish them" on a bomb. I genuinely think that the fascists strongly want people who care to not vote, and you're joining them in their fight to take power by arguing against voting for the only non fascist that could win the election.
Every day you pretend that voting Biden makes things worse for Gazans than not voting for Biden is a day you spent working to bring about fascism in America and the deaths of even more Palestinians. Stop it. It matters.
bzzzt not quite. You're thinking of the immediate background, not the underlying causes. Capitalist decay results in the Bourgeoisie appealing to the Petite Bourgeoisie as a form of collaboration against the lower classes. Capitalist Decay is the key here, it's a desparate attempt to turn the clock back. Capitalism will continue to decay under Biden, ergo fascism will get stronger, which is why Leftism is the only path against fascism, or force.
I agree, these are horrible people, and I want liberals to side with Leftists against them.
See, this is silly. Biden can't win the election, and he's also supporting the rise of fascism, standing idly by while conditions worsen and fascism grows. Far-right violence increased under Biden. This trend carried over from an increase under Trump, Biden did not reverse the trend because he did nothing to address the root cause.
I really wish you could see a mirror. Biden has helped obliterate 180,000 Palestinian men, women, and children. This is not stopping under Biden, you're just telling the victims to bear with it because that's acceptable to you. Organize on the ground, quit supporting fascism and the Biden Regime.
Bzzzt. Wrong! Wake up! Quit supporting Trump and the actual fascist regime he plans. Look up project 2025. Believe him when he says he'll be dictator on day one. Get your head out of your textbook and put a mark in the one box that can stop the cristofascist takeover of America, you know, for the party that don't write "finish them" on Israeli bombs.
Project 2025 is happening under Biden, you don't need Trump in office for that. Trans rights are crumbling and genocide is happening.
Gotcha, I'll vote for PSL.
On another note, does the fact that Biden's bombs don't have "finish them" written on it mean that the Palestinians blown up by them don't have their feelings hurt? Is that why optics matters for you, when the end result is dead Palestinian children with US-supplied bombs?
What Trump wants to happen in this election is exactly what you are advocating to happen in this election. You support the alt right agenda in America, and pretending that Roe v Wade is anything other than engineered by Trump is a lie.
What on Earth do you mean? You're supporting the people doing nothing while fascists gain power as though they are antifascist, and yelling at people trying to permanently end the problem.
Do you know why there's a saying, "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds?"
You're supporting the cristofascists winning the election by trying to convince anyone who cares to not vote against it happening. You are supporting the cristofascist plan.
Everyone on lemmy knows that people who call themselves tankies or leftists are going to argue until the sun comes up for whatever it is that some fascist dictator wants using whatever crazy logic or appeal to emotion there is, and will argue in the strongest possible terms against people using their vote to prevent a worse catastrophe. I'm not an accelerationist. You argue like one.
People should vote for antifascist politicians, not christofascist enablers.
Genuinely don't understand this incoherent rant.
OK.
I am not superior, I just think that "who should we vote for?" is a question for the ballot box and "what should we do?" is a more important question for the rest of the time.
When has voting kept fascists from power?
This coming November. So you pretend that stopping fascists is important to you, but you're not prepared to even put a mark in a box to stop it.
When has voting ever stopped fascism?
This coming November. If you cared even a tiny little bit, you would make a mark in a box. But you don't really care, you just pretend to care.
Historically, when has voting ever stopped fascism? Do you have any historical knowledge of fascism, where you think you can stop it simply through the electoral process?
Your question is actually misleading. What you mean is "when did voting cause a fascist regime to hand over power peacefully", but what's not documented well in the history books is how many times a far right party lost an election, didn't get their hands on real power and didn't become a regime. The answer to the two questions is
What's better? Wait till it happens and it gets so bad that people take up arms and even more death occurs to start the long road back to peaceful transfer of power or vote it away before it starts?
You can help to prevent this, but no, you're claiming to care and hinting that you might be prepared to do something drastic, but if it comes down to putting a mark in a box, oh no, that's asking too much. You're completely deceiving yourself if you believe what you're saying.
No, that's not what I mean. America has a fascist problem, even if Biden wins fascism is still coming. I am directly asking you when fascism was stopped by voting against a fascist threat.
No, this is historically inaaccurate, hilariously so. The Nazis took power without being elected.
You can't "vote it away," fascists don't care about electoral results. They sieze power. Voting for Biden slows the descent into fascism but does nothing to the core reasons why it exists, ie decaying Capitalism and dying Imperialism.
I'm actually suggesting organizing, touching grass, and building dual power. I do plan on voting, I myself am undecided. If the Democrats manage to completely reverse their genocidal tendencies and take a firm Anticapitalist stance, I would probably vote for them, but as it stands that just kicks the problem down the road while conditions continue to worsen.
Even if your points were correct, it's an absurd conclusion to draw: voting mighn't keep them out of power in the long so don't try now? How stupid is that advice? Very.
The Nazi party came to hold the reigns of government by winning the largest number of seats in a parliamentary election. (In Europe coalition government is more common than in the USA.) No power, no regime.
For four years. Better than allowing it to happen this year!
Maybe we can kick the can down the road long enough for the Republican party to realise that cristofascism isn't popular and if they want power ever again they'd better drop it.
What do the fascists want? People who care to stay home on election day or vote for everyone except the one that beat trump last time. What are you advocating? The same course of action. Literally the same.
Blah blah blah, but putting a mark in the box that matters is too much for you. Got it. Very sincere antifascist. /s
I am correct, historically. Either way, you're voting for fascism slowly, rather than fascism rapidly. Why does that keep them out of power if it happens regardless?
Yes, the people voted against the Nazis and the liberals sided with the Nazis against the Leftists with electoral shenanigans, regardless of what the people wanted. You're proving my point.
Nope, fascism is gaining in power under Biden, the rate of increase slows. There isn't a binary Not Fascist/Fascist switch with Biden/Trump, fascism is gaining regardless. America isn't determined solely by the President.
It is popular, and continues to get more popular. This is why Liberals like yourself never manage to beat out fascists, you don't understand why it's appealing to desparate petite-bourgeoisie.
Fascists literally do not care what you or I do, they will continue to win locally unless leftists organize against them while Liberals cry for "civility."
You should read a book, any book. I think reading things might help you think more clearly.
Voting for slow fascism or fast fascism still results in fascism. How do you stop fascism from being on the ballot? Strongly worded letters?
Fascists want trump elected and they care passionately that anyone that doesn't share their ideals doesn't vote so they can win.
I'm not even a liberal. I just live in the real world that you theoretically care about, but absolutely not as far as putting a mark in a box.
Fascists are also okay with Biden getting elected. Fascists support Biden as well, even if they prefer Trump.
You aren't a liberal, you just support liberals and liberalism, and condemn leftism and leftists for opposing it and fascism. Got it.
Secondly, I already said I will vote, but as it stands both the Democrats and Republicans service fascism and fascists, ergo I have to go outside that binary to hope to stop fascism.
You're not a fascist, you just plan on allowing the cristofasists to win. Got it.
On the contrary, you believe electing christofascist enablers somehow isn't christofascists winning.
We disagree.