this post was submitted on 28 May 2025
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[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 249 points 3 days ago (9 children)

What is this publication and who finances it because this section is incredibly sus:

Copper use is not carved in stone. Hybrid cars, which pair small batteries with gasoline engines, need far less of the metal than fully electric vehicles.

Power grids that mix nuclear, wind, solar, and a pinch of natural-gas backup can slice the copper bill dramatically compared with battery-heavy systems.

“First of all, users can fact-check the study, but also they can change the study parameters and evaluate how much copper is required if we have an electric grid that is 20% nuclear, 40% methane, 20% wind, and 20% hydroelectric, for example,” Simon said. “They can make those changes and see what the copper demand will be.”

Like you think we can transition to an increasingly electrified world, where all power comes from electric utility lines, and you think our copper usage will be ... just in renewable power plants?

This reads like straight fossil fuel propaganda. In an electrified future the majority of copper use comes from distribution lines and products that use electricity not the type of power plants generating electricity.

[–] carbs@lemmy.world 62 points 3 days ago (2 children)

I'm not defending the article, but I think most overhead power lines are aluminium, which is probably good as it's abundant compared to copper.

[–] bluGill@fedia.io 32 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Aluminium is very commonly used. It isn't near as good a conductor as copper, but you can easilly use more toeget results and in most cases that works fine.

The reason we stopped using aluminimun more is it is relly tricky. when you tighten a screw the al deforms over time and so you don't get a lasting connection. Al also corrodes to a non conductive state. Many house fires were traced to al wiring in just the few years it was common. We can mitigate all the above issuses but it takes care and so copper is preferred despite al being much cheaper.

[–] Telorand@reddthat.com 13 points 3 days ago

They stopped putting aluminum in homes, because it has a tendency to overheat more. The aluminum expands and contracts with load more than copper, which can loosen contact points and encourage oxidation, which then increases resistance and heat. Hot wires in the walls and outlet boxes are no bueno.

[–] GenosseFlosse@feddit.org 29 points 3 days ago (2 children)

In a lot of cases you can also use Aluminum instead of copper. You need thicker wires and it's less flexible, but it's doable and cheaper. Some old electric motors from the eastern block used aluminium coils for that matter, because copper was much more expensive there.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 2 points 1 day ago

Aluminium is actually a better conductor than copper when you judge it by mass, not volume. I think also by tensile strength.

In any case there's a reason that large overland wires aren't copper, but steel-cladded aluminium. Copper will always have its applications but so does gold and yet we're not running out of gold to plate connections with.

In cases like windings requiring more volume is actually an issue, in the case of PCBs... no, despite Apple's insistence, it's actually fine to have a phone that's 0.2mm thicker.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 10 points 3 days ago (2 children)

The US is allergic to it, but needs to get over it.

Aluminum wire was tried in the 1970s due to a spike in copper prices. The problem was that they just tried to swap it right in. Aluminum and copper have different rates of expansion. Over time, that would slowly loosen the connectors, and the wires would pop right out and cause a fire.

You can design connectors to handle both, and you'll see many electrical things today specify that they're good for aluminum or copper wire. It still has a bad reputation among electricians; they haven't unlearned the problem yet.

Now, one place it's more of a problem is in things like transformer windings. There are kilometers of wiring in any of them, so the higher resistance of aluminum is a problem.

[–] GenosseFlosse@feddit.org 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Now, one place it’s more of a problem is in things like transformer windings. There are kilometers of wiring in any of them, so the higher resistance of aluminum is a problem.

Is it? As far as I know you can use a larger diameter wire to get the same resistance as copper, if your device has enough space for bigger coils.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 1 day ago

You're trying to transmit power via magnetism so distance is an issue.

[–] Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 days ago

Its not just electricians, its got a stigma that seems really hard to overcome without some sort of education campaign. People wont buy a place that has aluminum wires.

[–] raltoid@lemmy.world 38 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)
  1. The article is shit, the study is about copper used for reducing fossil-fuel power generation. It is basing the projected use of copper on windmills and especially large batteries.

  2. Those high-powered and long distance power lines are made aluminium and steel.

[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 8 points 3 days ago (2 children)
  1. Distribution doesn't just include long distance distribution. It includes all the wiring between transformers and houses and all the internal wiring of the house and all the devices inside etc.
[–] fullsquare@awful.systems 19 points 3 days ago (1 children)

only residential wiring uses copper, everything from 350kV down to 400V lines is aluminum, and even in houses aluminum can be used too

[–] Saleh@feddit.org 6 points 3 days ago

And that part is entirely independent from whether the electricity is generated with solar, wind or fossil fuels.

[–] SomeoneSomewhere@lemmy.nz 20 points 3 days ago (2 children)

You're wrong in terms of long distance power lines being mostly copper, but this does seem a lot like fossil fuel propaganda.

Motors, generators, and transformers can be built using aluminium; they're just a bit bulkier and less efficient. Very common practice.

It looks like CCA might be making its way back into house wiring in the near future, with much lower risks than the 70s aluminium scare.

The big thing is that batteries really should be a last resort, behind demand response (using power when it is available, rather than storing it for later), long distance transmission, and public transport instead of private vehicles.

[–] r_deckard@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago

Heh. My batteries are flooded lead-acid, all 1320ah of 'em. No copper guilt here.

[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

You're wrong in terms of long distance power lines being mostly copper, but this does seem a lot like fossil fuel propaganda.

Motors, generators, and transformers can be built using aluminium; they're just a bit bulkier and less efficient. Very common practice.

What I mean is that the bulk of current copper wiring goes towards distribution and consumption, not generation.

The big thing is that batteries really should be a last resort, behind demand response (using power when it is available, rather than storing it for later), long distance transmission, and public transport instead of private vehicles.

This isn't a big thing. This is a constant thing in every system. It's the push and pull between efficiency and resiliency. More storage capacity is less efficient when things are going well, but is more resilient and adaptable when they're not.

[–] SomeoneSomewhere@lemmy.nz 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

What I mean is that the bulk of current copper wiring goes towards distribution and consumption, not generation.

Yes, but big batteries everywhere is going to effect that if there's copper in lithium batteries, and apparently there is.

This isn't a big thing. This is a constant thing in every system. It's the push and pull between efficiency and resiliency. More storage capacity is less efficient when things are going well, but is more resilient and adaptable when they're not.

Excess storage capacity, sure.

But inflating the base battery capacity to cover people having showers at 5pm because it's easier than storage water heaters and time/remote controls is stupid. You can reduce the base need for batteries by reducing the need for electricity in the first place and reducing the use of vehicles that need to carry batteries in place of e.g. overhead catenary.

[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 days ago

But inflating the base battery capacity to cover people having showers at 5pm because it's easier than storage water heaters and time/remote controls is stupid. You can reduce the base need for batteries by reducing the need for electricity in the first place and reducing the use of vehicles that need to carry batteries in place of e.g. overhead catenary.

A solution that doesn't take into account human nature isn't a solution.

[–] acosmichippo@lemmy.world 8 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

The original study abstract is a little more clear. The main concern is grid storage batteries and EV batteries.

Given that the sharp increase in copper demand is primarily driven by batteries, the extra copper needs for electrification can be significantly reduced if the need for electrical storage is minimized. This can be achieved by generating electricity through a mix of nuclear, wind, and photovoltaics; managing power generation with backup electric plants fueled by methane from abundant resources of natural gas; and transitioning to a predominantly hybrid transportation fleet rather than fully electric vehicles.

[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 11 points 3 days ago

Or you use pumped hydro, or compressed air, or gravity batteries, or any of the other energy storage technologies that aren't chemical batteries.

[–] brown567@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 days ago

Most electrical transmission lines are aluminum because it's cheaper and lighter

https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/conductor-types-used-for-overhead-lines

[–] _stranger_@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

Do they think the copper is consumed? Like, renewable resources burn copper?!