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In concept, it's simple: Identify the conditions that lead people into anti-social behaviors, and change those conditions to encourage pro-social behavior instead. That way, not only do we avoid having to incarcerate people, we don't have victims anymore. This may sound abstract and hand-wavey, so as a concrete example, crime is way, way down compared to the 1970's, and it seems to have a lot to do with eliminating leaded gasoline, and allowing abortion. A concerted effort to reduce poverty would go a long way to reducing crime rates even further.
Social influence (culture, social norms, peer pressure, etc.) is the most effective way to keep people in line. Laws do diddly-squat. Most people respond to their life conditions and surroundings, including what people even think of as crime. For a good example, instead of jaywalking, consider speeding. It's against the law, but socially promoted, so virtually all drivers do it even though it's against the law. Or, consider a "law-and-order conservative" business owner whose social circle wants to see the heads of the local panhandlers cracked, but happily engages in wage theft from his employees, and whose pastor at church is diddling kids. Simply put, the better alternative to prison is to create and put people in social environments that don't tolerate crime in the first place.
Even people who don't respond to social influence, the sociopaths, can be handled more productively. They still have motivations and needs that, while disconnected from empathy, still guide their behavior. They're still essentially rational people, too. There's a program here at the Mendota Mental Health Institute that works to rehabilitate sociopathic people who've landed in the criminal justice system. They've had good success by identifying what these young men want, and explaining/demonstrating to them (i.e. through their rational faculties) that they can get what they want long-term by learning and following society's rules. I know a guy who is/was deficient in empathy, and landed in jail, where his therapists helped him exercise and develop his empathy. Smart dude, and now he's got a productive job where he's invaluable to the company. The concept is again deceptively simple: As an intelligent man, he learned to consciously ask himself, how would I feel if my actions were instead applied to me? He uses the Golden Rule, essentially.
Let me flip this around and ask why do we consider prison as an appropriate way to "deal" with murderers, rapists, and child predators? I would point out that the United States has a huge prison population, and murderers, rapists, and child predators. If the threat of prison were an effective deterrent, why is that? (To unload the question, I'll say that I believe that we practice incarceration as a morality play by which we re-assure ourselves that we are good people compared to the criminal scum. It has nothing whatsoever to do with concern for victims.)
Exactly! Eliminate the root cause of a problem and it will work its way out of the system.
Never works! People are too stupid.
So, implement changes in society that curb those behaviors? I feel like it's not that simple and some people are born fucked up. Just feels idealistic that people will just stop raping, killing and molesting if they also have access to some resources. How would you quantify
"Simply put, the better alternative to prison is to create and put people in social environments that don't tolerate crime in the first place. " what does that look like in practice, if not prison/execution.
Thank you for the contribution so far.
Some people absolutely are born fucked up, but way, way more people are just born into fucked up situations and neglected until they explode.
It looks like early social intervention that helps people succeed without breaking the law. The reason American society is this fucked up is the fallacy that everyone is responsible for themselves. Absolutely none of the rich would be rich without extensive support given to them in every aspect of their lives.
Not to mention enough money to buy judges, and other privilege. Brock Turner.
Yeah, some people are just born fucked up, and putting them in prison to handle it is a bad way to handle them. What do I mean? Well, when people are born fucked up, it's usually pretty obvious. A lot of the infamous mass shooters that come to mind, people knew. In some cases, they tried desperately to get somebody to help do something about it.
But our system (correctly, IMO) operates on the principle of innocent until proven guilty. That is, we have to wait for fucked up people to hurt somebody else before we can put them in prison. Better would be a system that addresses mental health concerns and anti-social personality issues that people around them could draw upon, rather than just relying on cops and courts.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think that we could ever completely eliminate incarceration. We don't live in a perfect world, after all. But getting rid of prisons is a good goal to aim for.
I think thats a fantastic answer, thanks.
Vibes based "feels like" over empirical data based (hard evidence). "It feels like bloodletting is a more effective cure for sepsis than intensive antibiotic treatment." That's how that sounds.
All the time you spend asking questions and disagreeing you could as well spend actually searching, reading, watching videos.
That's not how a discussion works. Sure I could sit and do that by myself. I have done a good bit of looking into the topic. That's why I posed the question in the first place. But the point of a thread here is to ask a question and discuss it. If you think you have an objectively correct solution, lay it out. You linked a singular BBC article about a sigular tiny population country (1/60th the size) with completely different social, systemic and economic issues than faced in the US. Is that all the empirical data you're talking about? I'm just trying to have a talk about the subject. Typically part of a discussion includes opinions and how one feels about the topic. Again if you have hard data that provides an objective actionable solution please provide it.