Ask Lemmy

I think that incarceration isn't necessarily problem. It's who gets incarcerated for what, and how many innocent people mistakenly end up railroaded. Alternatively, cases of affluenza and individuals who help keep the broken system going, are often considered above the law.

Violent offenders should be locked up. All of them, regardless of wealth or connections. But they still deserve to participate in a fair and just legal system.

Nonviolent offenders should be fined, and the amount they're fined should be equivalent to the crime they've committed while taking their own wealth and ability to pay into consideration. If people commit a very serious nonviolent crime, but either can't or won't pay off the debt they're fined, they should have the option of volunteering in their community to pay off their debt. If they fail to pay fines or repay their community via volunteer time, then potentially they should have their wages garnished.

Most importantly though, nobody should be getting insanely wealthy via investments in private prisons. There should be no incentive to simply pack as many people as possible into a prison while pretending that you've done something positive for society that also just happens to greatly increase your profits.

You could do what the US does and elect them into office.

One of the things is not like the others....

jaywalkers, enemys of society #1.

I'd do a Royal Rumble. Throw them all in the ring together and let it sort itself out.

This is the greatest bait I've ever seen. Dying laughing at jaywalkers lmao. Teach me your ways king

Prisons more like European prisons that focuses on rehabilitation not isolation. Not slave labour camps the Americans call jails.

Tell the murderers and child molesters: We’re letting you go with a warning this time. But if you even think about anything reprehensible again, we’ll lock you up with the JAYWALKERS.

/s

Poverty and proximity are major factors increasing and sustaining crime, and if people don't commit crimes they don't become incarcerated prisoners. So better social systems for people who need it and forcing wealthy citizens to co-locate with poor citizens so they have to share the same goods and services instead of allowing a multi class system in everything but name. And for the US obviously outlawing for profit prisons and the prison slavery clause of the 13th amendment. No crime justifies slavery as a punishment. That'll reduce prison populations by such a large amount that you could easily manage rehabilitation and humane incarceration programs for each individual.

how would you deal with murderers, rapists, child predators

okay... interesting question...

and jaywalkers

Wat? 🧐

Did you mean incarceration?

Jaywalkers LOL

Why the downvotes? It is a perfectly reasonable topic to discuss, and an interesting one at that.

In concept, it's simple: Identify the conditions that lead people into anti-social behaviors, and change those conditions to encourage pro-social behavior instead. That way, not only do we avoid having to incarcerate people, we don't have victims anymore. This may sound abstract and hand-wavey, so as a concrete example, crime is way, way down compared to the 1970's, and it seems to have a lot to do with eliminating leaded gasoline, and allowing abortion. A concerted effort to reduce poverty would go a long way to reducing crime rates even further.

Social influence (culture, social norms, peer pressure, etc.) is the most effective way to keep people in line. Laws do diddly-squat. Most people respond to their life conditions and surroundings, including what people even think of as crime. For a good example, instead of jaywalking, consider speeding. It's against the law, but socially promoted, so virtually all drivers do it even though it's against the law. Or, consider a "law-and-order conservative" business owner whose social circle wants to see the heads of the local panhandlers cracked, but happily engages in wage theft from his employees, and whose pastor at church is diddling kids. Simply put, the better alternative to prison is to create and put people in social environments that don't tolerate crime in the first place.

Even people who don't respond to social influence, the sociopaths, can be handled more productively. They still have motivations and needs that, while disconnected from empathy, still guide their behavior. They're still essentially rational people, too. There's a program here at the Mendota Mental Health Institute that works to rehabilitate sociopathic people who've landed in the criminal justice system. They've had good success by identifying what these young men want, and explaining/demonstrating to them (i.e. through their rational faculties) that they can get what they want long-term by learning and following society's rules. I know a guy who is/was deficient in empathy, and landed in jail, where his therapists helped him exercise and develop his empathy. Smart dude, and now he's got a productive job where he's invaluable to the company. The concept is again deceptively simple: As an intelligent man, he learned to consciously ask himself, how would I feel if my actions were instead applied to me? He uses the Golden Rule, essentially.

Let me flip this around and ask why do we consider prison as an appropriate way to "deal" with murderers, rapists, and child predators? I would point out that the United States has a huge prison population, and murderers, rapists, and child predators. If the threat of prison were an effective deterrent, why is that? (To unload the question, I'll say that I believe that we practice incarceration as a morality play by which we re-assure ourselves that we are good people compared to the criminal scum. It has nothing whatsoever to do with concern for victims.)

do you want results or to enact self righteous suffering in the name of punishment 

Any serious answer to that is going to be pretty much book-length really.

Here's one attempt: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/prison-research-education-action-project-instead-of-prisons

As a convicted jaywalker and registered pedestrian offender I feel seen. Thanks chip!

anti incarceration

Incarceration?

My personal opinion, segregation from society isn't the issue so much as retributive segregation. Segregation from society should focus on intensive therapies, ongoing after release, if necessary, providing some sort of educational, trade, and artistic training, and supportive social services after release, alongside parole.

Edit: https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846

jaywalkers

Hahaha

I like the cut of your jib.