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And you still think that communism is the way? If so you're just spreading their propaganda.
It did volunteerly kill millions, and still is in its remnants of russia for example. If you need a nuanced person to "open your eyes" for the atrocities made in URSS/USSR why not talk with a nuanced nazi, you might learn that they too did bad things. /s
Those discussions are such shit shows, stop trying to reanimate the old horrors of past, we actually have new interesting theories that might actually work without killing everyone.
Yeah, killing Nazis and landlords is necessary for progress sometimes, not something to criticise. Those are the vast majority of the people communism killed on purpose.
Because you're committing a fallacy by comparing the two. Socialism has achieved, in practice, lowest inequality where it has been applied, universal healthcare, universal education, guaranteed employment, guaranteed housing, guaranteed state pensions for retirees, redistribution of land from landlords and nobility to peasants... In my homeland of Spain we had fascism, and it literally fought against all those things, we still have plenty of people in their 70s and 80s who cannot even read as a consequence. Communism saved Europe from Fascism, they're literally the antithesis.
Stop trying to maintain capitalism by fighting against the only system in history which has proven it can destroy it and improve our lives.
The old: if you're not with me you Must be pro USA/Capitalism.
Is that all you got?
Also the millions killed I referred to were the direct orders from stalin to kill millions of their own people (holodomor included).
But that's just propaganda from "the west" right?
You're literally making that up, though. Executions in the USSR aren't numbered in the millions during the great terror, and holodomor was an unintentional famine, nobody was "killed", it's the result of unintentional side effects of the first successful mass collectivization in human history. The Soviet leaders knew the process would be chaotic if they embarked in rapid collectivization as they did, but it was a necessary choice enforced by the threat of external invasion and the need for rapid industrialization. It was a hard measure but it worked, and thanks to the rapid collectivization and industrialization, the soviets could create the industry that would 15 years later enable them to defeat Nazism, saving many more tens of millions than were lost in Holodomor.
See? We can do nuanced analysis of the policy. However, if you make ahistorical claims, such as "Stalin ordering the holodomor" (which is untenable under modern historiography), you'll get called out for it.
For clarity, clashes between the kulaks and Red Army absolutely happened during collectivization in the 1930s, and many kulaks were killed as they took up arms to defend their bourgeois lifestyle. I'm not shedding tears for them just like I won't shed tears for Nazis, landlords, etc, but these clashes did happen.
I did specify the great terror, for the most part the destiny of Kulaks in the early 1930s was sentenced by peasant trials, not by the Red Army. If I'm not wrong, most Kulaks who died during collectivization weren't executed, they died during deportation.
Ah, gotcha. Definitely agree that the majority of the kulaks were dealt with by the peasantry that were under their thumb, just wanted to point out that frustrations between kulaks and the Red Army did happen.
Thankfully the red army was there to carry out the will of the masses
Indeed!
Stalin never gave direct orders to kill millions of soviet citizens, nor indirect. Even the Great Purge never exceeded ~700,000 sentencings to death, and was stopped because these sentencings far exceeded what Stalin and Molotov had set at a maximum number, which was around 70,000. The famine in the 1930s was not intentionally caused even if you believe it to have been amplified by mismanagement, either.
Once discovered that a famine was occuring, the soviets did what they could to prevent and alleviate it once it had started. The idea of an intentional famine is simply fringe among contemporary historians, same with claims of white genocide in South Africa. For example, serious bourgeois academic sources tend to say it was a failure of planning, rather than intentional and genocide. For instance, Mark Tauger wrote:
Tauger believes it was a failure of economic policy, not an intentional attack on ethnic Ukrainians. The 1930s famine was a combination of drought, flooding, and mismanagement. Further, the Kulaks, wealthy bourgeois farmers, magnified matters by killing their own crops in the midst of a famine rather than letting the Red Army collectivize them. The Politburo was also kept in the dark about how bad the famine was getting:
From: Archive of the President of the Russian Federation. Fond 3, Record Series 40, File 80, Page 58.
Excerpt from the protocol number of the meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party (Bolsheviks) “Regarding Measures to Prevent Failure to Sow in Ukraine, March 16th, 1932.
Letter to Joseph Stalin from Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine regarding the course and the perspectives of the sowing campaign in Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
Letter from Joseph Stalin to Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
Muggeridge and Jones reported on the famine. Völkischer Beobachter reported on it as intentional, and then spread the story around further. Why would the soviets try to starve their own people? It was because of the soviets and collectivization of agriculture that famine was ended, and that's why outside of wartime the 1930s famine was the final famine in those regions, with life expectancies doubling.
Overall, trying to hold on to red scare historiography does absolutely nothing to help the cause of socialism. The soviet archives have provided a wealth of knowledge largely affirming the communist narrative, and debunking liberal and fascist narratives about existing socialism. If you consider yourself a leftist of any sort, then you'll inevitably run into people using the red scare against you too, so perpetuating their mythos just shoots your own movement in the foot.
Imagine defending a state that set an arbitrary number of human lives to end for ideological reasons. Repugnant
And before you start on it I don't believe any state should have the right to execute its citizens.
That wasn't what happened, though. The soviets had discovered in the 1930s that not only was there a plot against the soviet state from within, but also severe corruption and remnants of the former ruling classes and their sympathizers in place. The soviets had set up means of internal investigation, and by and large managed to kick out corrupt officials from government. They found many guilty of treason, corruption, and other serious crimes, but the number of found guilty and sentenced to death exceeded their estimates, and hence it was called off.
The death penalty should be abolished, sure. However, socialist states, and especially the soviet union, are in a constant state of siege and infiltration. They weren't killing random people willy-nilly.
Then why did you say that's what happened? I quoted you exactly. Any state that plans to execute 70,000 of its own citizens I'm not going to support. Creating a arbitrary maximum shows a complete disregard for human life. It's simply unacceptable.
That's the problem. When the state has the right to execute people they can make the law what they need it to be in order to "legally" execute anyone they wish. The state is the law.
The state finding 700,000 people guilty kinda exemplifies the issue even if they didn't carry out the sentences.
You claimed things like "it was done purely for ideology" and other bits I didn't say, so I added context. There wasn't a plan to execute the maximum limit, nor was the limit arbitrary. Further, the purges were popularly supported by the populace, because terrorism, infiltration, and assassinations were prevelant, including people like Kirov who were close to the top. The soviet system was democratic, the state was not above society.
Anything's possible when you make shit up kiddo
Wow, one minute and downvoted.
Guess that's all you have left.
Socialism in real life has achieved the absolute highest rates of improvement for the working classes in terms of life metrics, immense social equality, and has presented a path forward in an era of dying capitalist imperialism. You're spreading propaganda too, knowingly or not, given that propaganda is merely agitating for your own beliefs.
The "millions intentionally killed" by socialism consist of landlords, capitalists, fascists, the Nazis, etc. Socialism has never killed people willy-nilly, but has run into conflict with the old ruling classes time and time again, as socialism is the establishment of working class power over the former ruling classes.
This implies the communists and Nazis are equal evils, a form of Holocaust trivialization called Double Genocide Theory. Communists, upon gaining politucal power, did and do their best to uplift the lives of working people. The Nazis on the other hand built industrialized mass murder, and attempted to colonize Europe the way Europe had colonized the world.
What are these theories? Any establishment of socialism will necessarily put you into conflict with the ruling classes of capitalism. Socialism historically has not been a "horror" for the working classes, and as such has been popularly supported by them. A theory being "interesting" doesn't make it practical, nor is socialism "killing everyone."
Above all, here, you cling to vagueposting. You erase class analysis, weeping for killed Nazis, and when it comes time to present a solution, you just say "other things might work" without elaborating. It's sterile and negative "left" criticism that serves nobody.
Lol ok genocide lover, if it's the URSS doing it, it's okay.
Blocked.
I despise genocide, what the hell is that pivot? The USSR never committed genocide, this is backed up by modern historical analysis. Are you calling killing Nazis "genocide?"
What do you call the Holodomor?
The Holodomor was a genocide
No, it was not. Once discovered that a famine was occuring, the soviets did what they could to prevent and alleviate it once it had started. The idea of an intentional famine is simply fringe among contemporary historians, same with claims of white genocide in South Africa. For example, serious bourgeois academic sources tend to say it was a failure of planning, rather than intentional and genocide. For instance, Mark Tauger wrote:
Tauger believes it was a failure of economic policy, not an intentional attack on ethnic Ukrainians. The 1930s famine was a combination of drought, flooding, and mismanagement. Further, the Kulaks, wealthy bourgeois farmers, magnified matters by killing their own crops in the midst of a famine rather than letting the Red Army collectivize them. The Politburo was also kept in the dark about how bad the famine was getting:
From: Archive of the President of the Russian Federation. Fond 3, Record Series 40, File 80, Page 58.
Excerpt from the protocol number of the meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party (Bolsheviks) “Regarding Measures to Prevent Failure to Sow in Ukraine, March 16th, 1932.
Letter to Joseph Stalin from Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine regarding the course and the perspectives of the sowing campaign in Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
Letter from Joseph Stalin to Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
Muggeridge and Jones reported on the famine. Völkischer Beobachter reported on it as intentional, and then spread the story around further. Why would the soviets try to starve their own people? It was because of the soviets and collectivization of agriculture that famine was ended, and that's why outside of wartime the 1930s famine was the final famine in those regions, with life expectancies doubling.
Overall, trying to hold on to red scare historiography does absolutely nothing to help the cause of socialism. The soviet archives have provided a wealth of knowledge largely affirming the communist narrative, and debunking liberal and fascist narratives about existing socialism. If you consider yourself a leftist of any sort, then you'll inevitably run into people using the red scare against you too, so perpetuating their mythos just shoots your own movement in the foot.
Nice copy paste of r/communism talking points you got there
If I have spoken about something before, then there's no advantage to rewriting the same information, is there? Do you dispute any of the evidence I brought? Do you have any of your own? It seems like you're using the fact that this topic has been discussed before as proof of not needing to look at existing evidence, which is blatantly wrong. The fact that communists tend to agree on something is not evidence of it being "false," no matter how much you frame agreement as "talking points."
Either way, I am curious how long it will take you to become a Marxist, given you seem more curious about theory than most anti-communists.
Been a Marxist a while now buddy. I've read most of the foundational texts, much to the detriment of my academic work. The genocidal character doesn't take away from the rapid technological advancements that came from the collectivisation, but facts are facts.
The evidence is there and has been presented by many historians. Most historians agree that the Holodomor was a genocide, but i know all too well the character of your response to this evidence.
Here's a good literature review by Olga Andriewsky that corroborates the genocide view
I know you consider yourself a Marxist, but when you push ideas like "opposing slur usage is idealist," you completely betray any comprehension of what you've read. I'm curious what you consider to be "most of the foundational texts," but either way, simple input does not make one an actual Marxist. That's why theory and practice have to be unified. I don't know if you've moved beyond that particular position, but it's just an example.
The famine was not a genocide. This theory is pushed by liberals and by fascists, but as I already showed, there was no targeting of Ukrainians or any ethnicity, and archival evidence from opening the soviet archives proved definitively that the soviets did all they could to alleviate famine. You haven't actually addressed my claims. Facts are facts.
There's nothing wrong with opposing slur usage. You're misrepresenting my argument. A white guy singing a rap song and mentioning the 'n-word' wouldn't—and shouldn't—give me or anyone much pause, as opposed to a random white guy (or even a black person for that matter) using the word insultingly on an airplane. Interpretijg the two scenarios as the same is metaphysical and anti-dialectical.
Other than the politzer book and blackshirts and reds, I've read the manifesto, socialism utopian and scientific, dialectical and historical materialism, critique of the gotha pogramme, foundations of leninism, what is to be done?, imperialism the highest stage, right of nations to self determination, reform or revolution, and so many other pamphlets/articles by Lenin i can't recount.
Because liberals and fascists push the theory doesn't mean it is not true.
This is actually not true. The article i linked shows that the Soviets refused Ukrainian communist party requests for famine relief, and purged those same leaders as being counter-revolutionary.
Back when we last discussed slurs, you had said that opposing their usage itself was idealist, and that we give words power by caring about it. I still disagree with using slurs no matter the context, but this is an advancement on your prior position, or at minimum an advancement in your communication as such.
As for what you've read, pretty good start! I mean that genuinely. The State and Revolution, The Tax in Kind, and of course Capital are all good places to go next. The Tax in Kind is directly related to the background of the 1930s famine, so it's helpful immediately, though do keep in mind terminology has advanced since it was written to be clearer.
Returning to the 1930s famine, as I showed above the Central Committee was kept in the dark by the Ukrainian communists as to the famine. They tried to save face by telling the Central Committee that everything was fine and under control, but this was not the case. Drought, flooding, and kulaks burning their crops and killing their livestock as protest against collectivization had destroyed output, and the soviets were still exporting grain in order to trade for industrial equipment with the west (which is what the west wanted in exchange for industrial equipment).
Upon learning the truth of how bad it was getting, the Central Committee was furious. The officials responsible in Ukraine were held accountable, hundreds of tractors and other farming equipment was directed to Ukraine, as well as ~17 million poods (~14ish kg/pood) of grain were redirected towards Ukraine. The Central Committee had been deciding policy based on the reports they were recieving, and these reports were falsified to protect the Ukrainian communist party leadership.
Had famine been the goal, no aid would have been given at all, or perhaps token aid. Sending hundreds of millions of kg of grain to Ukraine is no petty tribute, and punishing Ukrainian party leaders that lied and facilitated famine was the correct course of action for such treason. Counter-revolutionary is correct! They had put their own skin above the peasantry.
In all of this, there was absolutely no reason to have intentionally created a famine. The USSR needed grain for industrial equipment and to feed its people, it would not have sabotaged output deliberately. On top of this, there was existing accusations of the soviets overly supporting Ukrainian national identity, Lenin had given them the Donbass region and in an effort to overturn the Tsar's oppression the soviets highly valued national identity and self-determination.
There is no real evidence of deliberate starvation or creation of famine. All that exists is evidence of tragedy, weather adversity, class conflict between kulaks and the peasantry, and mismanagement in part by the Ukrainian communists and in part caused by disinformation fed to the Central Committee, which changed how they treated Ukraine. Again, they needed grain for industrialization, which they saw as necessary for defense (and this was proven correct as the rapid industrialization in the 20s and 30s is what enabled soviet victory over the Nazis in the 40s).
That was not my argument. Revisit the thread
Although i haven't read The tax in kind, I've read other literature about the NEP. I've also studied a fair bit on the history and politics of the USSR from the October revolution till Lenin's death. I decided to postpone reading Capital until I finish university—even then, I'll probably still delay further because it is very difficult.
Ukraine was still a net exporter of grain despite the aid. They also had to meet quotas else they wouldn't receive aid.
Additionally, if there WAS aid, why were there still peasants attempting to flee Ukraine? The CC directives ordered all departures from Ukraine to be prevented further corroborating the genocide point.
Even if we give the USSR all the benefit of the doubt, there were still calls within the party warning how dangerous forced collectivisation would be. War communism proved you couldn't forcibly collectivise grain without major consequences. Bukharin, all too fervent in his warnings about the famine, was purged. He would later be proven correct. I'll never understand die-hard Stalin defenders.
I already explained how the soviets needed to export grain to gain industrial equipment, this industrial equipment was used to help boost agricultural output. It was a balancing act forced by low levels of development. The genocide point has no evidence, just suspicions. Peasants were attempting to flee because famine still existed, but had there been mass flight of the peasantry agriculture would have collapsed and famine would have spread. That's why the famine was ended as quickly as it was.
You can absolutely find arguments against collectivization in the Bolsheviks. It remains true that collectivization was necessary, and the fact that it was completed when it was enabled the communists to beat the Nazis. What remains are the 2 real problems:
Drought and flooding severely damaged production, along with kulaks resisting collectivization by burning crops and killing livestock. This was out of the soviet's hands.
Deliberate hiding of real conditions by Ukrainian communists. Even if we blame the Ukrainain communist leadership in particular, this was ultimately a failure on the part of the communists ocerall.
Collectivization was necessary, and did achieve its end goals, but at far greater a cost than necessary due to a combination of adverse weather and mismanagement. What it was not was genocide, as there was no desire to inflict famine nor a reason to.
Bukharin wasn't purged for warning against collectivization (and even if he succeeded, the soviets likely would have been wiped out in World War II due to a delay in industrialization), he was purged for being part of a plot to overthrow the CPSU. I'm not a "die-hard Stalin defender," I am trying to accurately convey what happened. Stalin made many mistakes, we can even see that here in how collectivization was handled. What we cannot see is genocidal intent from Stalin nor the rest of the Central Committee.
If you want an actual critique of Stalin by a communist using near exclusively western sources, Domenico Losurdo's Stalin: History and Critique of a Black Legend. Stalin made numerous mistakes, and committed great crimes, such as re-criminalizing homosexuality and supporting the Nakba. At the same time, he was not a genocidal monster as the west portrays him as, and was in fact much better than contemporaries like Churchill.
Alright pal. This discussion is going in the usual discussion, which is nowhere. I don't know why I came back to this platform
If your argument can be dismantled by copying and pasting that's entirely your own fault
Fuck off dude
Get a job