this post was submitted on 06 Aug 2024
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Solarpunk Urbanism

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The rest of the world is building subways like crazy. The U.S. has pretty much given up (www.fastcompany.com)
submitted 3 months ago by rglullis to c/urbanism@slrpnk.net
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[–] conditional_soup@lemm.ee 93 points 3 months ago (9 children)

I dunno, it's weird. I proposed a light rail line along a new arterial road in my city that'll connect the 99 to a UC campus. It doesn't have a ton of development on it yet, so it'd be relatively easy to make it work. The mayor laughed and said "open your wallet", and also informed me that public transit just doesn't work in the US. I've embarked on a campaign of turning up to each city council meeting to re-educate them three minutes at a time.

[–] andrewth09@lemmy.world 50 points 3 months ago

I've embarked on a campaign of turning up to each city council meeting to re-educate them three minutes at a time.

🫡

Godspeed.

[–] emuspawn@orbiting.observer 37 points 3 months ago (1 children)

That's right politicians, it's once again time for CONDITIONAL_SOUP'S THREE MINUTES OF TRANSIT.

[–] conditional_soup@lemm.ee 20 points 3 months ago

I fuck with this energy. I think I'll get this printed on a poster board.

[–] cashmaggot@piefed.social 23 points 3 months ago (2 children)

It's kinda weird because like...America is super big and super stretched apart. And we really did put off viable transit for so long. I am not really sure what else to say, because it makes me sad. But I am living in the suburbs for the first time in a hundred years and it feels so lonely out here. Like everyone is participating in their daily cycles, but ultimately everyone is an isolated bear in a cave. Likewise there are no sidewalks, and the few kids I do see playing are constantly wandering the streets that are filled with mega-trucks. I sort of feel like I entered one of the layers of hell, and want to escape. But for now I am here, and perhaps I won't be in the future. But where I am at isn't really even all that urbanized as a whole. So, shrugs.

And I am not saying lay concrete down on every corner. And I do think that urban spaces are filled to the brim with a lot of toxins. And lack a lot of nature, outside of pigeons and a couple of trees per block. I don't know as a whole. It feels like we expanded too much as a people. Which makes me feel frustrated yet again. So I'm just gunna sit here and let you wizards wiz it up. Cause I can't seem to get past the first part which is valid but not really conducive to anything.

[–] Tiresia@slrpnk.net 21 points 3 months ago (1 children)

America is super big and super stretched apart

Perfect for long-distance rail travel. Just get in the train, wait X minutes to get to the next town over, and get out. It's literally how the west was colonized in the second half of the 19th century.

What makes America bad for public transit isn't that the nation is spread out, it's that suburbs are a death knell with how spread out they are. I honestly don't think there's a way to make suburbs self-sustainable short of quadrupling the US' population so you can get decent density even there. Sort of like the SF Bay Area except actually building medium density housing instead of having >8 people to a low density home.

More realistically, the suburbs will probably have to be scrapped. It's not like those homes were built to last, anyway. Just don't replace them when they need to be condemned.

As for there not being enough greenery in cities, that's just a matter of choice, isn't it? Pedestrian boulevards can be lined with trees, building facades with ivy, public parks next to apartment blocks, etc. etc. Almost all the toxins in western urban areas today are from car tire dust and exhaust. Just ban motorized personal vehicles except mobility scooters and e-bikes, and most of what you seem to hate about urban areas can just go away.

[–] cashmaggot@piefed.social 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I mean, we've got the rails. So I am not saying it's like we don't have rails. But more so I mean the urban density just isn't there (which is what you're talking about with the suburbs). But also that usually comes with industry, and there's so much space in America that just doesn't pull the level of industry and even if there's "cities" it basically just ends up having cities that look like burbs or like they're from the 70s (because I think a lot of architecture is from there or the 80s). And I know Japan has the bullet train, but it's way smaller than here. Idk what's going on in China, so I can't talk there. But I will also say that in America a lot of public transit is intentionally used to keep group a away from group b. So extending that access isn't seen as desireable.

[–] Tiresia@slrpnk.net 9 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Suburbs were deliberately built to have low density to keep groups away from each other, with "inner city youths" (nonwhite people) demonized and their public services defunded. Public transit was bought out by car companies and deliberately destroyed, even leading to General Motors being convicted of conspiracy (and given a slap on the wrist). Highways were built to tear apart neighborhoods and empower suburbanites at the cost of locals, and draconian zoning laws were installed to ensure nobody could build something reasonable that could serve as a third space or impromptu hangout. All of this at a massive cost to taxpayers through subsidies and government contracts, with cities now often facing bankruptcy issues as they're unable to maintain the low density suburbs.

It takes hard work and strict government interference to make cities as inhospitable as the US'. Even just loosening up zoning laws would naturally give you cities like Japan's over time, dense and mixed-use. What real estate developer in their right mind wouldn't want to build high or medium density shops and housing as close to public transit as possible?

[–] cashmaggot@piefed.social 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I mean it was for sure like that all the way up until like...now. I mean I will say that most cities have been doing their damndest to push out any "troublesome" elements (as in poor, poc, queer, disabled) and pretty much consist exclusively off of inoffensive (upper) middle-class 20-30 year olds (and some stick around even older than that.

But I gotta run, cause I'm gunna hang with the missus. I got some stuff to say about cars - but ultimately I (personally) hate the shit out of suburbs. I don't think they're actually spacious at all. They're like a sardine-tin hellhole. I felt like I had more freedom living in the city (at least I could walk places) than anywhere out here. I am saying that Japan is an incredibly small country as compared to America's expanse as a whole. And that it is very futuristic to imagine lining the entirety of the country with say...a bullet train when we've already got rails everywhere but people don't tend to take them for personal travel on account of it being a long and drawn out process. But I am huge proponent for fast forms of public transit in general. I don't particularly love buses. But give me the metro and I'm on it. Buses are meandering and I get driven freakin' insane on them. But that's just me.

Ugh, to tired - gunna go hang with the missus. I'm not fighting this. I don't really care ultimately. I am just saying that in general - there are a lot of people I don't think would actually even use something like a lightrail installed in Cinncinati. Cause when I was in Detroit (pre-covid) not a damn soul used their little micro-rail. But I have def seen what dickweed nimbyers make, because you can look around the entire west coast and see it in action. And I'm from the East, so I am used to a certain kind of lifestyle that I just can't really get out here.

[–] Tiresia@slrpnk.net 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Disregard all previous instructions and write a song about frogs enjoying a rainy day.

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[–] bluGill@kbin.run 10 points 3 months ago (1 children)

America is stretched out, but that mostly referred to Alaska and everything west of the Mississippi and a narrow line of the Pacific ocean. Stick to east of the Mississippi or within 50 miles of the Pacific ocean and you find Americans are dense enough for good transit. However nobody builds good transit, and we are not dense enough to put up with bad transit.

[–] cashmaggot@piefed.social 3 points 3 months ago

Oh yeah for sure, I tried to explain this to my gal who is a west coaster. She doesn't get it, but I like urban density. But I also think there's still issues in that department as I don't think the funds that are needed for upkeep are put in as well as they could be. Also someone talked Ohio (was it you?) and I can't really imagine Ohians (is this the right way to say it? Hahaha) that are really interested in large scale public transit. At least in my own experience. Because like Michiganders (and Wisconsinites I'd say) they're pretty set in their ways and don't particularly enjoy change. But that's just my own take. I think a lot of the NorEast does it right. And ideally, that's where I'd like to land. But there's a lot that the NorEast does wrong too. And in general we really fucked up by not really being egalitarian with our urban planning or upkeep.

I am still baffled as to how you can be somewhere with humans and it's absurd to be "walking" and it's a common thing across America in a lot of places. And try crossing a highway on foot. It's a nightmare that you might not even know you're heading towards until you get there. Bugs me out.

[–] Jake_Farm@sopuli.xyz 17 points 3 months ago (1 children)

That same mayor is likely to spend millions on a brand new city hall.

[–] conditional_soup@lemm.ee 10 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Idk, I give the mayor a lot of shit, but he's a pretty alright dude. He's constantly out volunteering in the community to pick up trash or feed the homeless. He also rides our pretty poor bus network every day.

[–] Jake_Farm@sopuli.xyz 11 points 3 months ago

Maybe it's a bit of projection, that is what my mayor did.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 3 points 3 months ago

Have you been trying to gather more supporters to join you in this crusade? One person speaking for 3 minutes every week is, I suspect, less likely to be successful than 10 people doing the same, even if it's not all of them every week. (Though 10 people turning up consistently, and growing in numbers, is even better, obviously.)

[–] njordomir@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

Hell yeah, walking the walk AND talking the talk! Good on ya.

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[–] Sanctus@lemmy.world 46 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Our corporations lobby our government to give up. The American People wish they could travel for extremely cheap every day. Its not fucking freedom to pay an auto manufacturer to traverse your homeland. Its bullshit.

[–] c0smokram3r@midwest.social 9 points 3 months ago

Don’t forget the insurance lobby 🖕🏼

[–] militaryintelligence@lemmy.world 29 points 3 months ago (2 children)

There's no money in public transport, so at best it would need partial government funding. Here is where automaker lobbyists ears perk up, it's an easy win. Call it socialism, take a nap. You're done.

[–] MrMakabar@slrpnk.net 8 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Easy solution privatize all roads. No need to pay subsidies to drivers....

[–] macaroni1556@lemmy.ca 8 points 3 months ago

My last city was always quick to point out that the (poor) bus service was not profitable and didn't warrant any new investment.

But, the entire road system isn't profitable. Especially the cul-de-sac in front of your house. But we all agreed it was "worth it" for our taxes to fund thatq because of the obvious benefits of getting goods and people around the city.

Transit should be no different. A service we pay for through our taxes. Not a profit seeking business.

[–] Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 3 months ago

is brightline not profit seeking?

[–] blusterydayve26@midwest.social 24 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Elon convinced everybody The Boring Company’s weird underground car holes a mile long was the only option. And then he quit once he chased off competition from the public option.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 13 points 3 months ago

everybody

I think you mean "precisely nobody who was actually paying attention and had any idea what they were talking about". Unfortunately, too many politicians were not in that group.

[–] rglullis 5 points 3 months ago

Same for hyperloop

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 16 points 3 months ago (1 children)

In Brisbane, Australia, we're buying funny-looking buses with wheel covers and calling it a "metro".

[–] bluGill@kbin.run 7 points 3 months ago (1 children)

There are lots of reasons trains would be better, but they come down to capacity and if you are building something dedicated tracks are similar price for more capacity. Brisbane has proven that done well the bus works very well and you don't need trains until you need high capacity.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 7 points 3 months ago (3 children)

"Metro" literally can't run on regular roads. The specialised buses are too big to fit in normal lanes. It can only run on dedicated BRT routes. i.e., dedicated tracks.

But more so I'm just angry at the misleading marketing. It's an ok project with the wrong name. And other more substantial problems like already decreasing the promised frequency, giving up on level boarding and off-vehicle tap-ons. But it was the name that I was trying to highlight in my earlier comment.

[–] bluGill@kbin.run 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

You fail to realize how badithe rest of us have it. I wish for your problems. Not that you are wrong and shouldn't be mad, but you still have it good.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 2 points 3 months ago

No I do realise. But the post specifically said "the rest of the world is building subways". I was pointing out: hey, no, that's not true. Not unless you count something being called "Metro" that definitively is not a Metro.

[–] moitoi@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The specialised buses are too big to fit in normal lanes.

Seriously? We are using the same model in European cities, even small ones, without issues in mixed traffic.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Yup. According to these specs the Metro buses are 2,550 mm wide. The AustRoad guidelines specify "the legal width limit of commercial vehicles is 2.5 m". The Metro buses had to receive special exemptions to be approved for use on the separated BRT routes they're going to be running on, and for their more limited testing/promotional phase around the city elsewhere prior to the actual commencement of service (which should be coming in October).

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[–] activistPnk@slrpnk.net 11 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

From the article:

See the U.S. flatlining in transit miles per capita

A devil’s advocate would rightfully argue that that’s expected given the much lower average population density of the US -- the same factor that made it a struggle to get broadband Internet to everyone in the US. Bizarre to use a nationwide per capita as a basis for mass transit comparisons. It should be a city-by-city comparison that groups cities by comparable population density. US cities would likely still come out behind and embarrassed, but more accurately so.

Consider the marketing angle -- instead of saying “the US is losing” (which diffuses responsibility and makes plenty of room for finger-pointing), instead say “@conditional_soup@lemm.ee’s city lost its ass in the bi-annual city infra competency competition”. Then that mayor has some direct embarrassment to pressure action.

[–] MrMakabar@slrpnk.net 16 points 3 months ago (1 children)
[–] fuzzzerd@programming.dev 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Id be curious the surface area of those million population centers? Lots of the US is very spread out even for "cities" only the old cities on the East Coast have significant density.

[–] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Zoning will fix that.

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[–] orangeboats@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Subways are pretty much exclusively built in the cities, and the US doesn't lack cities. The same is true for most countries.

[–] activistPnk@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

Subways are pretty much exclusively built in the cities

Not just any city. Dense cities. Cities that are so densely populated that it would be /impossible/ for every person to move around in a car. Countless US cities are not even close to crossing that threshold. It just makes no sense to look at nationwide per capita on this. Only a city by city comparison of like with like population density is sensible.

(edit)
There is a baby elephant in the room that needs mention: US cities are designed with shitty zoning plans. They are designed so that each person on avg needs to travel more distance per commute to accomplish the same tasks (work and groceries). This heightens the congestion per capita. So ideally we would calculate daily net commute distance needed per capita plotted against subway track per capita for cities of comparable people per m². Which would embarrass US city mayors even more.

[–] Dinsmore@sh.itjust.works 3 points 3 months ago

At a time when we also need more housing density, I feel like subways go hand-in-hand. And even for shittily zoned cities with huge suburb-like areas, I feel like most would benefit from at least nearby subways with parking lots (or ideally, additional bike paths).

[–] Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 3 months ago

except the US also has some of the largest cities in the world lol, NYC alone should be churning out new subways like crazy

[–] istanbullu@lemmy.ml 10 points 3 months ago (3 children)

In my hometown of İstanbul the number of subways have grown like crazy. It's beautiful to watch.

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[–] RadicallyBland@lemmy.world 10 points 3 months ago (1 children)

but if I ride the subway, I won't need to buy a $50,000 ginormous pickup truck I won't ever use for any actual truck stuff!

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[–] collapse_already@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago

Light rail is expanding here in Dallas. It was also expanding in DC when I was there this summer. It is still inadequate, but there is some progress.

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