this post was submitted on 21 Sep 2024
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Steam Deck

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This would presumably let x86 windows games run on ARM hardware.

This is almost certainly meant for the next Valve VR headset, but ARM has so much better power efficiency than x86 that a future ARM based Deck would be a huge improvement to battery life.

Also see this tweet:

VR games that have already secretly pushed Android ARM builds onto the Steam Store are ran via Waydroid (androidARM to LinuxARM)

VR games that do not have an ARM build on Steam (windows x86) are being translated/emulated via ProtonARM and FEX

Edit: here's gamingonlinux coverage of this info, includes some more information

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[–] soulsource@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

ARM based Deck would be a huge improvement to battery life. Don't get your hopes up too high. You will need an emulation layer like FEX of Box64, and unlike WINE those do have quite a substantial overhead.

It is impressive how far those emulators have come, especially since they got the option to use native libraries instead of emulated ones, but the game logic itself will always need emulation...

This doesn't mean it can't be done, it just means that the ARM CPU needs to be pretty fast to counter the emulation overhead, and that's why I have my doubts about the energy efficiency...

(Btw: I have tried running several AMD64 games on my A311D powered MNT Reform laptop with Box64. It's impressive how well the emulation runs, and how many games are actually playable already. However, I also encountered a lot of games that don't reach enjoyable FPS on that hardware. With a faster ARM chip though....)

[–] tiddy@sh.itjust.works 3 points 4 hours ago

With a big dev like valve backing it they could probably implement a pretty impressive JIT/cacheing scheme - of course nothing beats native but this gap will close over time

[–] milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee 11 points 14 hours ago (2 children)

This would presumably let x86 windows games run on ARM hardware.

Doesn't that require something quite different?

Proton is improved (matured?) WINE, right? And Wine Is Not an Emulator - the point being it doesn't emulate hardware, it translates instruction sets. From for-Windows x86 to Linux x86. Can you do that cross cpu architecture?

[–] stormeuh@lemmy.world 9 points 9 hours ago (2 children)

Well, not exactly... WINE is a compatibility layer for syscalls between the x86 Windows API and (among others) the x86 Linux API, quite similar to how DXVK translates from DirectX to Vulkan.

What proton does is combine utilities like Wine and DXVK into a user friendly bundle, along with contributing substantially to the projects it bundles to make them interoperate well.

This looks to me like they want to bundle another utility, which does fast emulation of x86 user code on an ARM Linux system. Another commentator mentioned they are using FEX for this, which looks to me to do the same core task as qemu-user, but more focused on x86 to ARM and generally user-friendlier. That emulator could then be used to run x86 Wine on ARM.

The way qemu-user and FEX emulate one ISA on another is actually very cool btw. They realise massive speed gains by intercepting syscalls and executing them directly, instead of emulating a whole x86 Linux system.

[–] xavier666@lemm.ee 4 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Since Microsoft also wants x86 apps to work on their Qualcomm powered Windows laptops, can this project help Microsoft in some way?

[–] stormeuh@lemmy.world 4 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

No, not that much. The emulation of the syscalls are specific to Linux, so none of that is usable on Windows. They could reuse the emulator, but it seems likely they would write their own from scratch so they can keep everything closed source. Obligatory: fuck Microsoft.

[–] xavier666@lemm.ee 5 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

A happy fuck Microsoft to you as well 🎩

[–] supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz 1 points 58 minutes ago

Hey, can I join in!

Fuck you Microsoft

[–] milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee 2 points 7 hours ago

Thanks for the explanation!

[–] bbb@sh.itjust.works 6 points 14 hours ago

I'd assume "FEX" in the last tweet in the OP is referring to this: https://github.com/FEX-Emu/FEX

[–] solberg@lemmy.blahaj.zone 14 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Exciting! I remember commenting about the next Steam Deck being ARM a couple months ago and a few people replied that it was unlikely haha

Hope this can work in Asahi Linux at some point too 👀

[–] PlasticExistence@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I could see a budget Deck with an ARM processor, but I still doubt the flagship model wouldn’t be x86-64

[–] sour@feddit.org 7 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

I don't think a budget deck is likely tbh. The non oled deck already goes for 250 on sales. To make a clear distinction the budget one would need to be <150. And I don't think that's feasible with all the other hardware necessary alone. Except making it a lot smaller which I don't think is a good approach.

[–] PlasticExistence@lemmy.world 1 points 5 hours ago

Well you may be right and Valve may only be aiming to support some of the already-existing handhelds out there that are ARM based.

Valve does know how to play the long game on support, so time will tell.

[–] OhYeah@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 1 day ago (1 children)

A part of me does hope that they'll hold off and release riscv products instead (headset and deck). I know box64 can already translate to riscv and I remember reading that FEX was working on it (android is also getting riscv support so waydroid should too?). Given their focus on linux it has to be on their radar

[–] entropicdrift@lemmy.sdf.org 6 points 15 hours ago

In the shorter-term the issue is the lack of sufficiently powerful commercially-available RISC-V hardware for the level of gaming people expect out of a Steam Deck or VR headset, which ARM already has a number of SOCs capable of.

I don't doubt that the work will continue but Valve isn't likely to pour time or money into it until they think the hardware is there.

[–] helenslunch@feddit.nl 37 points 1 day ago (6 children)

This is almost certainly meant for the next Valve VR headset

Based on what? Looks more likely to be Android to me. Or it could be an ARM Steam Deck.

ARM has so much better power efficiency than x86

x86 has pretty much caught up already if you look at the latest mobile chips from AMD and Intel.

[–] entropicdrift@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 15 hours ago

Steam for Android ready to play my PC games from my phone sounds awesome, not gonna lie.

[–] Telodzrum@lemmy.world 4 points 20 hours ago

Largest addressable market for Proton on ARM is Apple M-series devices.

[–] BananaTrifleViolin@lemmy.world 19 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Intel claims to have caught up with the upcoming Lunar Lake series but still to be seen.

That may be too late for whatever new device Valve is working on as given the lead time for such devices they may already have committed to an architecture for devices next year.

Also running X86 games on Arm devices is not likely to be efficient. I doubt the energy efficiency of Arm chips would outweigh the overhead of X86 to Arm translation?

But it's all speculation - even without hardware, getting Proton to work with Arm is good for steam regardless of any specific devices. For example it would allow steam to push the compatability tools onto Mac devices and even potentially mobile devices. Makes sense for Valve to do this without it meaning anything more that it being a god idea in itself.

[–] independantiste@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It depends for the translation speed, if they only make a single device, they can likely do what apple does and improve their translation layer (FEX) to use specific instructions of the CPU they are using. Apples Rosetta is very efficient at what it does

[–] entropicdrift@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 15 hours ago

Even Rosetta still gives up 10%+ efficiency compared to a native compilation of the same program. I'm not saying it's not viable, but in a resource constrained (especially battery-constrained) device 10% is a lot.

[–] Fubarberry@sopuli.xyz 9 points 1 day ago

Part of how they're identifying that proton arm and steam Waydroid exists is that the tools are being used to test VR games uploaded to steam, or were uploaded in a batch of other VR assets.

I fully hope to see this apply to Steam Deck/Chromebooks/Android/etc, but right now any hints of these have been VR specific. We haven't seen the Proton ARM before, but previous leaks about Waydroid have also all been VR related.

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[–] leopold@lemmy.kde.social 64 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (8 children)

Well, Steam and Proton both already run on top of FEX or Box64 on ARM Linux, but it's nice to see an official effort from Valve.

Also, does ARM still have better battery life when all of the machine code has to be translated from x86? That adds a not insubstantial amount of CPU overhead, which does hurt battery life.

And perhaps most importantly, is there any ARM chipset out there that can deliver performance on par with the Steam Deck's CPU (even after factoring in the overhead of the x86 JIT) at a viable price for a Steam Deck successor?

[–] drspod@lemmy.ml 35 points 1 day ago (3 children)

is there any ARM chipset out there that can deliver performance on par with the Steam Deck’s CPU

Yes, but they're made by Apple.

[–] MyNameIsAtticus@lemmy.world 10 points 1 day ago (3 children)

I got a M1 Pro MacBook a couple weeks ago. I’m astonished at how fucking powerful those thing are. An Intel laptop I had with similar specs would start screaming for mercy for any heavy Programming work I’d do. The MacBook just shrugs it off. Fans don’t even come on

[–] Dudewitbow@lemmy.zip 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

keep in mind, for the longest time Intels processors were still on Intels fab. a huge chunk of the efficiency/performance gains was less x86 > arn and more Intel Fab > TSMC. even to a lesser extent, compare the snapdragon 8 gen 1 to the snapdragon 8+ gen 1. Samsung wasn't as far behind tsmc (compared to intel) at the time and both designs basically are the same chip but implemented at two different fabs.

It also involves how manufacturers decide how to handle price performance. Most laptop manufacturers see any performance lost due to clocking it low bad for sales(so they agressively clock it higher for performance) causing louder fans. Apple takes the opposite approach, where they tune it for noise performance because they control what people see on their graphs (while being misleading, by essentially never including anything faster than it) and asking users to pay top dollar for the top tier fab runs (apple essentially has top cut priority at TSMC) so they always get to see the bleeding edge efficiency nodes/performance before anyone else does at the higher cost to them(which is then passed on to the consumer)

[–] fuckwit_mcbumcrumble@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

AMD is on a much better process node than Intel, but their battery life still isn't as good as Apple's. Particularly under low to medium loads. My M1 MBP easily gets 12 hours of battery life under a real load. My AMD powered ThinkPad is closer to 7 hours, and my Intel machines get like 4, on a good day.

[–] Dudewitbow@lemmy.zip 3 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago) (1 children)

the thing is, people are attributing it to ARM, rather than how Apple handles their OS. its the sole reason why Snapdragon X Elite wasn't that great on Windows, because ultimately, the problem wasn't about x86 vs Arm, but it was about how windows handled low powered operations. If valve makes a piece of hardware that's arm based, they clearly aren't going to be using OSX for any reason. You can tell by the discussion because you can easily name which generation processor you run on a MBP, but fail to mention the cpu models for either the AMD nor intel powered machines and gives the aura of equivalent playing fields when it fundamentally wont.

Just because Apple with their heavily controlled OS space can make the transition to ARM work flawlessly for batterylife doesn't mean it applies to all other ARM devices. Arm definitely does some aspects better, but it's not by default better in every situation due to the nature of the environment that surrounds said hardware is. The power efficiency only exists if all applications are recompiled to target said hardware. For a gaming device, it's not going to be very useful because very few games that Valve would target have an arm based build. You get into the problem that emulators have. things like proton is a translation layer and suffers much less overhead (e.g why mobile phones can do switch emulation for instance(arm to arm based translation layer) but no phone remotely will do ps3 emulation (arm to ibm cell processor), despite console wise, being roughly the same in performance.

It's the sole reason why Apples dev kit for games doesn't run games like proton does(where it can legit run games better than original if its using an older API). Because architecture changes isn't just a translation layer, theres a layer of emulation to it, which while can be hardware accelerated if done right, is never 1:1 like a translation layer is.

Want to test how your MBP battery life is on a different environment not entirely tailored to Apple, run Asahi Linux for example and you will notice immediately that the battery life isn't the same. (asahi linux is a fedora based distro tailored for M series machines)

[–] red@sopuli.xyz 2 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

This comment makes it seem like we don't already have Modern Arm Windows based laptops that have excellent battery life, comparable to Apple M devices.

But we do.

[–] Dudewitbow@lemmy.zip 1 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (1 children)

me mentioning the snapdragon x elite is the situation. it doesnt have good battery life in the usecase this while topic is about (gaming). your comment sounds like you read the reviews and didnt understand which functions excelled in battery life, and which ones didnt.

the whole point is just because something is Arm, doesnt automatically make it more efficient in all usecases. what's the point in a gaming device thats less efficient when its gaming.

[–] red@sopuli.xyz 1 points 6 minutes ago

Windows Arm laptops are currently just as bad for gaming as all the other arm based laptops, so it's weird to single them out. That's why I didn't think you were only speaking about gaming any more.

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[–] Mwa@lemm.ee 18 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Imagine someone can game on their Mac using ashi linux or heck even your phone

[–] skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl 12 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Winlator already does this on Android, for what it's worth. Oblivion plays fine on my phone although touch input sucks.

As for games on Asahi, there's box64/box86 to accelerate games (redirecting graphics APIs and such to native code).

You can already run apps made for foreign architectures by simply installing the right qemu package (not the virtual machine, the binary translator) and running the software using standard Wine. Conversely, you can also run Raspberry Pi software this way on normal PCs, which has proven very useful to me for cross compilation scenarios.

I assume Valve will take all of this tech and optimise it a bit more. If you're on a MacBook, your biggest challenge will probably be driver support, which is advancing at a rapid pace, but I'm not sure if you can get maximum performance out of it yet.

[–] linearchaos@lemmy.world 1 points 23 hours ago

Android loves mice and keyboards. A lot of games now support gamepad pretty well too.

I've been gaming on my phone using parsec to remote steam and bring the controls back to my gamepad.

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[–] Vincente@lemmy.world 30 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (16 children)

Amazing! I hope I can buy a Linux on ARM Steam Deck someday. It should be more efficient, lighter, and smaller.

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