this post was submitted on 15 Nov 2023
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The obvious answer to the title is that 3rd down conversion rate should only look at what a team actually did on 3rd down. But nobody actually cares about a team's 3rd down conversion rate. What people are really talking about when looking at that stat is how often can an offense keep the drive alive for another set of downs.

Below is my attempt at ranking every team by their adjusted 3rd down conversion rate. All I did was simply add a team's 4th down conversions to their 3rd down conversions, then recalculated their 3rd down conversion rate.

Team 3D% 3D% Rank Adj3D% Adj3D% Rank
Philadelphia Eagles 50.0% 1 60.3% 1
Buffalo Bills 49.2% 2 53.3% 2
Dallas Cowboys 47.2% 3 52.8% 3
Green Bay Packers 42.7% 8 50.8% 4
Los Angeles Chargers 42.4% 9 50.4% 5
Minnesota Vikings 41.5% 11 49.6% 6
Detroit Lions 39.7% 15 49.2% 7
San Francisco 49ers 44.8% 5 49.0% 8
Chicago Bears 43.6% 7 48.9% 9
Kansas City Chiefs 45.5% 4 48.2% 10
Los Angeles Rams 42.1% 10 47.6% 11
Baltimore Ravens 44.1% 6 46.5% 12
Atlanta Falcons 41.4% 12 45.7% 13
Carolina Panthers 37.7% 19 45.4% 14
Houston Texans 41.1% 13 45.2% 15
Miami Dolphins 39.6% 16 44.8% 16
Indianapolis Colts 39.2% 18 44.8% 17
Tampa Bay Buccaneers 39.5% 17 44.4% 18
Denver Broncos 40.5% 14 43.2% 19
Washington Commanders 37.2% 21 42.6% 20
New Orleans Saints 36.5% 22 41.9% 21
Las Vegas Raiders 33.1% 29 41.5% 22
Cincinnati Bengals 37.3% 20 40.7% 23
Arizona Cardinals 35.7% 24 39.7% 24
Jacksonville Jaguars 35.3% 25 38.7% 25
Pittsburgh Steelers 36.1% 23 38.5% 26
Cleveland Browns 33.8% 27 38.2% 27
New England Patriots 34.1% 26 37.9% 28
New York Giants 30.5% 31 37.7% 29
Tennessee Titans 33.3% 28 37.7% 30
Seattle Seahawks 31.5% 30 35.2% 31
New York Jets 25.0% 32 30.0% 32

Not too big of a surprise at the top and bottom. The Eagles, Bills, and Cowboys are great at getting a fresh set of downs and the Jets are awful at doing so.

But there are some interesting results in the middle. The Lions for example are only 15th in 3rd down conversion rate, but when you account for how many times they are then able to convert on 4th down, they are 7th in keeping drives alive.

The Chiefs on the other hand are 4th in pure 3rd down conversions, but have only converted 3 4th down attempts all season dropping them to 10th in adjusted 3rd down rate.

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[–] XLostinohiox@alien.top 2 points 1 year ago
[–] Nbc7_x@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

It’d be a different stat. Call it ‘drive continuation rate (DCR) or punt avoidance rate (PAR) or Adjusted 3rd down rate is ok too

[–] mab6710@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Because 3rd down and 4th down are two different downs

[–] TheSwede91w@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

But nobody actually cares about a team's 3rd down conversion rate.

This is where ya lost me bud. It's a pretty important stat.

[–] WelcometoCigarCity@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Hey OP do you have the stat for 3rd down conversion on defense?

[–] Boring-Pudding@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Because every team goes it for every time on 3rd down. They don't tend to do that on 4th.

[–] Venator850@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

This is illogical. 3rd down's are attempted, regardless of the situation, throughout the game in all areas of the field.

4th downs are highly situational and rarely attempted. Several teams have 10 or fewer 4th down attempts all year so far.

The Chiefs have seven 4th down attempts on the season, it's makes zero sense to adjust their 3rd down rate like that.

This is doing way to much with numbers.

[–] jwwin@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Why don't they count 4th on 1st or 2nd down by that logic?

[–] mightbetheyear@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Guy tried his best to present some new ideas and way of looking at teams staying on the field, and r/NFL just gonna shit all over it. Color me surprised

[–] justlookingokaywyou@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

nobody actually cares about a team's 3rd down conversion rate

Disagree wholeheartedly. The success on third down takes away either having to kick it or having to take a huge risk going for it on 4th down. The success rate of third down conversions is very important and should be tallied as it is now.

[–] nope-nope-nope-nop@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Using your argument, 2nd down conversion rate is more important, because it doesn’t put you in a situation where you have to get it or make a decision.

[–] Peefersteefers@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Nope. Huge difference between 3rd down situation and 4th down situation. That logic doesn't follow.

[–] ShogunNamedMarcus_@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

What people are really talking about when looking at that stat is how often can an offense keep the drive alive for another set of downs.

By this logic, just count every first down gained regardless of what down it was before.

4th downs tend to be attempted either in desperation or in high probability to convert situations. Both cases skew the numbers in a misleading way. 4th down conversion attempts also offer a relatively low sample size. You shouldn't get a ton of praise for converting that 4th and 1 or 2. Every team should be able to very consistently gain 2 yards. And failing to convert 4th and long in the final 2 minutes when you're losing shouldn't be held against you.

Barring an end of half FG attempt, teams go for it on 3rd down 100% of the time. For obvious reason. And for 99% of the game, teams operate as if they have 3 downs to gain 10 yards, not 4. If you consistently convert 3rd downs because you consistently have a shorter way to go, that is a very good sign for your offense. If you are constantly facing 3rd and longs, and struggle converting because of it, that is a very bad sign for the offense.

Tldr, 3rd downs, thanks to overall strategy/situation as well as sample size are much more indicative of a good offense than 4th downs.

[–] CallinCthulhu@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’m sorry OP. This is a great stat, you just presented it wrong, gave the mouth breathers ammo to make their snarky comments based off two sentences and leave.

Another commenter mentioned naming it Drive Continuation Rate, presented as that, I think it would be received better.

You could also include field position, and impact of failures, but that’s essentially recreating EPA/play lol.

I’m actually curious how well this data lines up versus success rate and EPA/p, should correlate pretty well as it makes up individual components of both.

[–] Sussboijames@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Especially since play callers will intentionally set up a 3rd down play call for 3-4 yards to open up the play book for the already decided go-for-it decision & not the first down.

[–] notmyplantaccount@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I'll tell you why we don't do this and why it is flawed, using my Team. The Chiefs have only gone for 7 4th downs all year I believe, being 3/7. 4 of those were desperation 4th downs in the broncos/lions game when we were down multiple scores, so it doesn't really give a good representation. Two of them I remember were 4th and 25 or more.

Maybe you could Weight this as there's a lot more 3rd down attempts than 4th down, or take out desperation 4th downs in the 4th quarter when losing over like 5-10 yards. I dunno.

Also I'm really annoyed how conservative Andy is being this year with the offense. They only have 3 4th down attempts this season that weren't because they're losing in the 4th and have to. This is part of why the offense looks worse, is we've punted or kicked field goals on about 20 4th and shorts this season, a lot of them inside the 10.

three 4th down attempts in 9 games with the best QB in the NFL, just dumb. (that's all my complaining, we're awesome)

[–] BowTie1989@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

“Nobody actually cares about a teams 3rd down conversion rate.”

It’s going to be a loooong time before any of us hear or read something that’s going to beat this. Wow.

[–] babyjaceismycopilot@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago
[–] _HGCenty@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I think just quote both numbers and don't try and combine them and since there is a lot of cuteness that can happen if you do. With 3rd down conversions, people know it's about how the offense is performing and it's an offense stat.

But 4th down conversions can be about special teams when the conversion is a result of you not going for it but the opposition being penalised (e.g. roughing the punter, false start on a 4th and 4 etc.)

[–] Statalyzer@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

What people are really talking about when looking at that stat is how often can an offense keep the drive alive for another set of downs.

I don't think that's accurate - if that's the case, we / you would be combining it with 1st and 2nd down conversions as well.

Now "3rd + 4th rate" does tell us something useful, but I don't see a big problem with separating them either.

[–] Imnotsureanymore8@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Jesus, c'mon, man.

[–] mill_about_smartly@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

It's funny how many people are clowning this, when 3rd and 4th down are regularly presented next to each other

[–] Jumpyjellybutton@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

I think there is some merit to this, often times teams will play for the 4th down conversion on third, but also I think for it to be useful I would want it to account for the higher risk of 4th down conversions

[–] Striking-Echo3424@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Cause they are two entirely different things

[–] devadander23@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Appreciate the stat, even if some are giving you shit for it. :)

[–] TheScoott@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

You might be interested in the breakdown of series conversions that PFF does every week in this article. under the section Moving the sticks

[–] Silversaving@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Why don't we include 2nd down conversions when looking at a team's 3rd down conversion rate?

[–] AmericanGangster@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Why not just measure the % of time you get a first down (also include 1st and 2nd down conversion rates). I think that’s the real stat you are looking for.

[–] LatestMonkey@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Because 4th down isn’t 3rd down.

[–] awesomealpaca20917@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Third down conversion happens on 3rd down. 4th down conversion happens on 4th down. Hope this helps.

[–] Sportacles@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

49%, perfect

[–] Party_Fig_8270@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago
[–] DanCampbell89@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

because they happen on fourth down, not third down

[–] awesomealpaca20917@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Thank you very much coach

[–] lUNITl@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Didn’t read the post just smart ass reply to the title.

[–] DanCampbell89@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

The post starts with a false premise that teams don't care about third down conversion rate. Of course they do

[–] OGBeege@alien.top 1 points 1 year ago

Who’s “We”?