this post was submitted on 09 Dec 2023
1087 points (88.8% liked)

Leftism

2115 readers
1 users here now

Our goal is to be the one stop shop for leftism here at lemmy.world! We welcome anyone with beliefs ranging from SocDemocracy to Anarchism to post, discuss, and interact with our community. We are a democratic community, and as such, welcome metaposts that seek to amend the rules through consensus. Post articles, videos, questions, analysis and more. As long as it's leftist, it's welcome here!

Rules:

Posting Expectations:

Sister Communities:

!abolition@slrpnk.net !antiwork@lemmy.world !antitrumpalliance@lemmy.world !breadtube@lemmy.world !climate@slrpnk.net !fuckcars@lemmy.world !iwwunion@lemmy.ml !leftymemes@lemmy.dbzer0.com !leftymusic@lemmy.world !privacy@lemmy.world !socialistra@midwest.social !solarpunk@slrpnk.net Solarpunk memes !therightcantmeme@midwest.social !thepoliceproblem@lemmy.world !vuvuzelaiphone@lemmy.world !workingclasscalendar@lemmy.world !workreform@lemmy.world

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] dmention7@lemm.ee 133 points 11 months ago (41 children)

Except it's literally just an economics term referring to positions that can be reasonably learned through on the job training with little or no prior experience.

Stuff like this just muddies and distracts the conversation from the true issue, which is that those jobs deserve a living wage.

[–] errer@lemmy.world 52 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Yeah I don’t care if the jobs are literally no skill, that shouldn’t matter when it comes to paying a living wage.

[–] deweydecibel@lemmy.world 21 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Also, unskilled jobs still end up generating experienced laborers who are worth being compensated for that experience.

[–] stevehobbes@lemmy.world 13 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

The whole point of the term unskilled labor is that it isn’t.

If you’re on an assembly line and you’re putting part A into box B, it takes an afternoon to learn and you’ll be about as fast as someone who’s been doing it for 30 years.

Either part A is in box B or it isn’t. The difference between the best person and the worst person that’s still worth employing is very small, and probably can’t be trained.

You don’t pay extra for someone with experience putting part A into box B.

But they should be paid a living wage.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (40 replies)
[–] rtxn@lemmy.world 63 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

"How much am I getting paid?"
"It's unskilled labour, so not much."
"Then I'll do something else that pays more."
"But then this won't get done!"
"You can do it yourself."
"I'm too important for this!"
"So the work is not important?"
"It's very important, it needs to be done or we'll be in shit up to our necks!"
"So pay me as much as this is important."
"I won't, it's just unskilled labour. WHY DOES NOBODY WANT TO WORK ANYMORE?"

  • a tale as old as time itself.
[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 15 points 11 months ago

This is why they're legalizing child labor.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] TechNerdWizard42@lemmy.world 52 points 11 months ago (6 children)

If you honestly think you can man the cash register at McDonald's competently with the same level and scope of training required to say design an RF frontend for cell signals or maybe remove someone's Appendix, then you're insane or lying to yourself.

"Unskilled" or now "low skilled" is a defined term. It doesn't mean a goldfish can do it, and it doesn't mean it isn't important. It means that any reasonable human with a modicum of training can do the job well enough to produce valued output.

At my service jobs, I'd usually get an hour or two of training per area, and be watched for a few days or a week. Then let loose and that's it. The guys I know that design those RF frontends not only have 4-8 years of physics and math intensive academia, but then work under senior designers for 10+ years learning and designing before leading their own project.

If you swap the Goodburger employee with the RF Designer, the designer will learn to sling burgers. The burger dude will accomplish nothing of value and probably be a net negative.

Nobody is saying anything of importance or requirement or paying wages. Taking a defined term and weaponizing it for a side cause makes anyone that knows what it actually means, roll their eyes and ignore the message you're trying to convey. And in this case, it's mostly unskilled workers trying to sound important to highly skilled workers. This means your intended audience is tuning the message out.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 52 points 11 months ago (5 children)

Doesn't matter if it's "skilled" or not, you're still paying someone to do something for you. And if it was trivial, you wouldn't be paying them.

At a restaurant I'm paying the chef and waiters for making me food, no matter what the quality, or if I could make better or not -- because I didn't want to cook, and they did it for me.

That alone is worth paying someone and thanking them.

[–] flamehenry@lemmy.world 16 points 11 months ago (2 children)

If only that cost could somehow be included in the price of the food and not reliant upon a voluntary donation from the customer as a % of the bill.

[–] wishthane@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago

I agree with that, tips are bad for everything except management (in case they can use tips to pay less and look cheaper) and tax evasion I guess

Otherwise they're highly discriminatory and a bad customer experience

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 49 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It's an actual term of definition though, it refers to work that doesn't require prior training outside of the professional sphere.

Technically not all of those panels belong on the comic because a couple are trades which have their own training and licensing processes that aren't on job learning.

A better naming scheme would be "pre-trained" and "job-trained" labor, but that doesn't mean the concept itself is some sort of lie.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] finkrat@lemmy.world 47 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Eh there's a difference between a job that can be accomplished with on the job training and the right soft skills, vs a job that requires a degree or apprenticeship or something similar

Ultimately it depends on liability and how replaceable you are if your employment terminates. Not that that mindset is a good thing, it's still exploitation, but that's the thought behind it.

Masonry and farming can be complex tasks requiring substantial training too.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 44 points 11 months ago (8 children)

Unskilled means you don't need prior skills before being hired. That's all.

It doesn't mean someone doesn't become proficient, or even great at the job while they have it.

load more comments (8 replies)
[–] smotherlove@sh.itjust.works 40 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (6 children)

To deny the existence of unskilled labor is pure delusion and it alienates people who haven't drank the koolaid. Instead argue that unskilled labor must still be compensated with at least enough money to be financially secure, same as all full time employment, regardless of what it is.

If you work full time, you shouldn't need to worry about money. That's it. Don't say more.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] creditCrazy@lemmy.world 26 points 11 months ago (3 children)

I've always found it ridiculous how farmers are considered unskilled. Like just anyone can balance on a moving trailer while throwing hay bailes around. It's just soo easy to take a tractor apart and back together again because a gasket blew. It's so easy to have a biggillion different skills varying from field to field. Literally everyone I know can run a mile while carrying a sailt lick. Farmers are just dumb and untalented. Am I right. /S

[–] Wogi@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Since when is farming considered unskilled?

[–] creditCrazy@lemmy.world 10 points 11 months ago

Quite often in films and books farmers are often depicted as dumb guy with funny twang accent. Also farmers are also depicted in the picture above. Yea it's trying to say all labor is skilled labor but hey OP felt the need to include farmers in the picture.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] flamehenry@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Are you confusing farmers with farm labourers? One runs a highly specialist business, one just needs to pick strawberries.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 26 points 11 months ago (7 children)

Unskilled just means pretty much anyone can do it. McDonald's, Walmart cashier, warehouse worker, etc.

You don't need any sort of certification or training. Yes, you need to be "skilled" in that you may need to be physically fit or friendly in social settings, there are definitely plenty of people who are not suited to warehouse work or being a cashier, but if you are suited you can generally start right away with minimal training.

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] chitak166@lemmy.world 25 points 11 months ago (16 children)

Unskilled usually means no experience required.

I think we should just say the latter.

[–] BillyTheSkidMark@lemm.ee 12 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It's not even no experience required, it's usually "can learn on the job"...

In theory you could learn any job "on the job", it's just that some jobs would take a lot more of the existing employees time to teach.

Also, if "time to learn" = more pay, then astrophysicts and philosophers would be some of the richest mofos out there.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (15 replies)
[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 23 points 11 months ago (2 children)

From essential workers to unskilled labor in one year!

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] MisterCreamyShits@lemm.ee 18 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Airline mechanic here. We are considered unskilled labor. Enjoy your next flight.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 16 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Why is the fellow in the last panel having relations with that sandwich?

[–] CobblerScholar@lemmy.world 13 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Amazon worker peeing in a bottle

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] BurnSquirrel@lemmy.world 16 points 11 months ago (3 children)

"Retarded" used to be the new sensitive word for what they called a "Moron". He's not a moron he's just "Retarded (slowed)". Now retard is one of the the quickest, cutting insults you can dish out. The word shifted when it got applied to people with metal disabilities.

I guess what I'm saying is, even if we don't called unskilled labor "unskilled labor", lets say we call it "duck jobs" eventually the neutral term "duck jobs" will shift when we apply it to shitty jobs that don't pay well and anyone can do. I used to work a few duck jobs out of school, like loading trucks, but eventually I got back to college and got an internship that lead to a goose job. Now I hope to never do a duck job again.

[–] trashgirlfriend@lemmy.world 21 points 11 months ago (3 children)

The point is that those jobs should not be paid badly

It's not about creating a new word to distinguish it, it's about eliminating the distinction

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 points 11 months ago

They assigned us positions with wages. Discussing wages with each other was highly discouraged. Turns out, our wages dictated our inherent worth as people. So we decided that that was a fine way to live. And we woke up during the wee hours of the morning to move boxes and pens and registers and turn cranks. Some of us are able to feed our children and everything is fine.

[–] calavera@lemm.ee 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

This is such a dumb take.

Even USSR had a difference between skilled and unskilled workers

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] flamehenry@lemmy.world 14 points 11 months ago (4 children)

Strawman. Unskilled /= low pay. High supply of workers/candidates vs. demand is what makes the pay low.

There are plenty unskilled jobs that are relatively well paid because, for whatever reason, not enough people want to do them. Painter/Decorator for example, how hard is it to paint a wall.

[–] Squirrel@thelemmy.club 12 points 11 months ago

"Hard" as in technical difficulty, effort required, or safety risk? The first is the only qualification of "skilled labor." However, all of these factors can affect pay.

[–] tryptaminev@feddit.de 11 points 11 months ago

In my country it is a three years trade apprenticeships and it is shit payed. Also you see the difference between a good and a bad painter very much.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] 100_percent_a_bot@lemmy.world 14 points 11 months ago (1 children)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] repungnant_canary@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago (2 children)

"Unskilled" is only unskilled because no proper training is provided. But you immediately notice if a cashier or cleaner is skilled or not. A cashier will know all the codes, all weird payment methods etc. And a cleaner needs to know the right tools for work, what chemicals to use and so on.

But if you block training and professional development in those jobs than yeah... they're unskilled and you have asshole justification for paying poverty wages.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] neidu@feddit.nl 10 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Any labor is skilled labor. The only difference is training time.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 10 points 11 months ago (9 children)

I have never heard of a job that required no training in order to do it. That's learning a skill. And if you've already trained yourself in how to do it, you've still learned a skill. I can't think of a job that you can do without any training whatsoever.

load more comments (9 replies)
[–] Sagifurius@lemm.ee 10 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Oh look. They put farmers and tradesmen in with fucking Starbucks counter staff

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world 10 points 11 months ago

You haven't seen some of my coworkers then

load more comments
view more: next ›