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For everybody commenting: It is a global study. So whatever you want to say about GenZ in your country will be wrong. It really doesn't matter what younger people in Indonesia are thinking when you're talking about Europe or the US.
Study is here:
Some part of this is the male influencers, and some part of this is kids being ignorant. But being a straight woman in that age group must really suck.
There is no better proof that one doesn't choose their sexuality than the existence of cisgender heterosexual women. I mean, hell, transgender heterosexual women, good luck to them, holy fuck.
I'm starting to think that being a straight woman just sucks at any point in time, because young men are not the smartest ones on the block. Today's young women, though, realize that there's an off ramp.
Almost nobody is the smartest, unfortunately. Good relationships have always been hard to find, and the more discerning you are, the harder it is.
I think we are seeing that more today because historically, marriage was the default and the fact that most of them were bad for one or both participants was known by everyone but never addressed. See the entire genre of "wife bad" boomer humor as Exhibit A.
Even 100 years ago there was social pressure on young men to learn how to behave properly. Being kicked out of the local church meant that you couldn't hang with your friends and would probably have to leave town.
Today, you can spend 20 hours a day online, hearing exactly what you want to hear.
I've heard this content classified as "traditional" but what I've seen of the manosphere+friends is something else truly terrifying. It's a mix of cult-like masochism and rhetoric you'd expect of a mass shooter or bomber; and it's public and widely-viewed, liked... I grew up Catholic and in "traditional values". This stuff goes beyond "woman is the home-maker" and "a family is a man and a woman"; to "women are sex slaves and property that men dominate". It sounds like the ideology of some vile hentai, and perhaps that's where it comes from.
Hell.., some of this rhetoric IS from mass-killers. The New Zealand mosque shooter was inspired by "Great Replacement Theory" at a time where that ideology was relegated to niche crevices of 4chan. Now extremist racist/incel beliefs are a core part of the platform of UK Reform, USA MAGA, German AfD, and general pronatalist ideology. And those parties are rising or seized power.
Interesting fact totally ignored by the click-bait headline:
Among women, 18% of gen Z and 6% of baby boomers agreed.
So, among women, support for traditional gender roles tripled.
Social media ‘influencer tradewives’ and the red pill circle are a huge reason both are going up in support, it kind of comes with less critical thinking, education, social and civil rights for women being taught, the works.
Those women are about to learn the hard way why women had to fight for their freedom from this oppressive system. Have fun with that domestic violence and financial prison
The older I get, the more I think that the internet was a mistake. It had a lot of potential for good and has delivered on that in many ways, but it has also unleashed an uncontrollable onslaught of radicalization, hatred, isolation, and mental illness. It's harms have outweighed the good by orders of magnitude.
Lots of things are fine when they are first introduced because we carry our lived experiences into it. But those who grow up with the new thing shaping their lived experience don’t bring that perspective to it.
This is going to be very true for AI.
Thanks for putting it in such concise words.
I am an embedded developer so the LLM/AI is a omni-present talking point and one of my friends was saying that he loved LLMs because they could generate big chunks of code and he can go through it after and fix the mistakes.
He has the skills to fix the issues because he has a decade of non-LLM experience.
But someone that doesn't have that experience will have a hard time finding the correct fix when the vibe code isn't working as it should. They will rely on LLM telling them that they were right, so here is a new fix that doesn't fix the issue.
I have such a hangup on this. Currently, a "tech journalist" in one of the big newspapers in my country is doing a series of articles about how he's vibe coded an app that, apparently, has been green-lighted by the IT department and is very useful for his fellow journalists.
He admits to not being able to read or write a single line of code, and describes what he does as "leading a team" where he makes decisions about what kind of features to implement, when things are too slow and need speed improvements, etc. Apparently, this web-app is now 66 000 lines of code, and used in production (unclear what it's actually used for). The LLM agents take care of everything from writing the code to setting up PR's, reviewing, testing, and deploying.
I can't help but see so painfully clearly that he's created 66 000 lines of liability, that he has exactly zero concept of potential bugs in, and which no human in the world is likely to fix quickly if production goes down. He has no idea whether database rollbacks are safe or even possible if something is corrupted.... there's just so many foot canons waiting to go off. And this is just 66k lines. That's not even a small web-app, it's tiny (this guy can't see the difference between generated files and written files, so I'm assuming 66k includes everything), and my personal experience is that LLM agents just get worse as complexity increases.
The biggest problem is that it's painfully clear that this guy is oblivious to all the above. He's happily chugging along as long as this looks like it's working. I can only assume that other people with his level of experience (that is, none) see it the same way.
It’s getting worse too. The amount of people who watch YouTube like TV (on their TVs) instead of regular ass old TV shows is making it to where no one is ever unplugged from the internet. So much of the content people view regularly is steeped in internet drama, or very online stuff like streaming, or politics optimized for the algorithm. TV sucks, but goddamn I think it may be healthier for people to have a break watching Law and Order or something instead of just being entrenched in the internet and internet drama 24/7.
I mean, I watch YouTube all the time, way more than TV these days. Some of that involves politics yes, but mostly it's just pretty innocuous. Science, technology, books, comics, gaming, D&D, sketch comedy, standup, animation, movie reviews, food, cooking, history, etc. By far the most political thing I watch on YouTube is Some More News, and it's admittedly pretty rage inducing sometimes. But most of my viewing is just wholesome, nerdy, and/or makes me hungry. I don't really live by the algorithm though. I primarily watch people I've specifically subscribed to.
Sounds like you have a healthier relationship with YouTube than a lot of people. YouTube really is a microcosm of the internet itself. A place where the innocuous and the poisonous exist side by side, and the difference between the two often coming down to where you let it take you.
The internet is just a way to get a message across. Overall, Gen Z (and further ones) are fucked in pretty much every aspect. No money, no housing and generally no real future. That leads to desperation and as a result you start asking yourself questions why up until the 1970s everyone had it better than the previous generations and now we’re constantly getting fucked. Then come the “saviors” of the internet that blame it on illegal aliens, women having rights etc because according to their logic we had it good in the 70s so we must reverse everything back to the way it was in 70s. If young people get some breathing room the trend will reverse itself in my opinion. But seeing as no one is coming to save young people, it will only get worse.
Then come the “saviors” of the internet that blame it on illegal aliens, women having rights etc because according to their logic we had it good in the 70s so we must reverse everything back to the way it was in 70s.
The problem isnt just the "saviors" and their message. Those people have always existed, always had the same blaming strategy. The problem is that the internet has made it easier for those messages to reach a global audience, has made the messenger faceless and unaccountable and given the presumption of legitimacy, has made it easier to get absorbed into isolated communities saturated in this kind of messaging, and made it easier to warp the worldview of the community to something antithetical to reality. If you run into a dude saying wacky shit in a bar, and he just seems to be some drunk asshole, you're not likely to give him much credence against all of the other messaging around you. But if you find an entire community saying the things he says, and they welcome you in, and you get a sense of comradery and purpose from it, that same messaging holds a lot of sway over you.
Isolation has always been the secret sauce to radicalization. Exposure is the antidote. Humans have always had cultural feedback loops that reinforce a specific worldview. And meeting with other cultures often causes conflicts when those worldview collide. The promise of the internet was a more global culture wherein we have a shared reinforced world view. But that didn't really happen for everyone. What we are seeing now is that same feedback loop phenomenon in a digital space, but often with dramatically different worldviews, even within the same local physical space. That still causes conflict when those communities collide, both online and in the real world, but now that conflict happens everywhere, even in your own household sometimes.
We're losing physical communities, friends and family for our online echo chamber communities. People are definitely driven more into those digital communities as their physical life is more of a struggle financially, socially, etc. Relieving those struggles would certainly go a long way in remediating the problem, but it won't go away.
Well, gosh. This falls right in line with what I've been saying and wondering aloud about things like the Fourth Turning.
The Archie Bunker thing was something boomers stood up to make fun of their parents' generation. That is the kind of thing that all this ginned-up inter-generational warfare that seems largely directed at the boomers (and the Silent Generation and Generation Jones somewhat) seems to miss.
And now we have all these younger "influencers" (barf) doing this kind of thing openly and unironically in the brosphere. The trad wife influencers. And those people and their fans are not the boomers...
There is 1 single problem with this survey: it centers on the average among different parts of a world instead of showing the percentage for each country or region clearly. This actually twists the perception of data, since in some countries religion and traditions are stronger or simply more citizens exist. Moreover, in a single big country like the US each state is a like a separate mini country what also makes data more mixed.
I personally would like to see something like a map of temperatures for each country before judging the situation.
The study has each country listed out. It's just the press releases that don't. The study didn't break out each age cohort for each country. That can be inferred but there are likely a few surprises, and the bias you mention from cultural groups with a larger population
Here's the comment with the study link:
https://mander.xyz/comment/25666102
Here's an example:
Wow that changes a lot about the title.
Taking it at face value you’d walk away thinking this is the dominant attitude in most of the western world, when that’s not the takeaway at all. A title like that just makes most men and women think their country is more conservative than previously thought. Talk about not helping young people that have more balanced views.
May they never have wives.
But fr, one of the things I've found interesting is how many men want a partner to the point of distress, but have batshit expectations of her, compared to how many women I've known who casually are interested in having a man but have hard limits as to what they're willing to put up with and would much rather be single than put up with a shitty guy. And in response to this the same men who are functioning as worse than nothing options, are increasingly expecting more and more out of women.
When I look at this as a market problem I come to the opposite conclusion as these young men: that men should consider obeying their wives.
But yeah violent misogyny must be met with feminism with teeth. We will not go back.
We are going back though project 2025 is calling for a removal of no fault divorce, women’s reproductive healthcare is being weaponized, death penalty for abortion bills are being introduced, the EEOC has been gutted, civil rights legislation is being reversed….not looking great for women
But yeah violent misogyny must be met with feminism with teeth. We will not go back.
I don't know: these people seem to be getting a permission structure from the government. Honestly, I've been watching some of this stuff and mostly being quiet about a lot of it, even online.
But if you ask me honestly? I'm terrified about the direction things seem to be going. I've seen lots of unhelpful intergenerational warfare, mostly about boomers and Gen Y taking shots at one another, while my generation (Gen X) is playing the part of the forgotten child, just as we always have. Boomers seem to get blamed for everything in life, but it's not like these other generations don't have any agency!
But I'm very concerned about Gen Z and alpha, and just where they are going. It's possible some of these people may break out of their mind forged manacles and moderate themselves or become more progressive, but that's not how these things tend to work. People tend to drift to the right as they get older, not the other direction. And if they are starting at the trad wife position at such a young age?....yikes.
alpha is already being set up to fail worst than gen z when they all become adults, and gen z is already addictively consuming far right content
One of my Gen Z colleagues described a conversation they had with their wife wherein she said “you’re my best friend”, and he responded with “I’m not your friend I’m your husband”. I bet that made her feel good.
Did you call him a douche?
You should have
Idk, dipshit feels more appropriate. "Hey dipshit, sometimes you have to pay attention to the meaning over the words when your wife is expressing how she feels about you"
So, Gen Z males are three times as likely as baby boomers to remain single?
Pretty much. Voluntary incels.
https://www.npr.org/2025/05/22/nx-s1-5166115/politics-dating-gen-z-millennials-boomers-poll
This seems to be the press release from one of the groups that did the study:
https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/almost-third-gen-z-men-globally-agree-wife-should-obey-her-husband
At the bottom is a download button with extra data analysis and their methodology but here is a direct link:
You're older than youve ever been and now youre even older. Now youre even older. Now youre older still.
Apart from the fact that this is reported by The Guardian. It is important to highlight that it is not just a "gen Z" problem. This is yet another battle against the generations - and the fact is, gen alpha also has this problem.
It is baffling how yet again, people are needlessly correlating problems to a particular minority. Problems as a result of precise indoctrination, crafted by our glorious leaders and corporations. The fascism within our lives impacts everyone no matter the age.
So honestly who's fault is it to enable such widespread fascism in the first place? Our whole ecosystem is basically fascists in disguise, technology crafted to indoctrinate people from their infancy and punish those which stray away.
This is a problem which disregards the root problem and shifts it all on meaningless "generations". Growing up with fascist made technology essentially puts you on the fascist training programme. Of course, even if you didn't - majority of the time they will leave you no other choice than to obey.
alpha will like suffer even worst insecurity than GEN Z, because they would be growing up with social media all thier lives, if not from toddler already
FFS don't share journalism that summarises a study without linking to it