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Discussion: Are the US trying to colonize Europe? (lemmy.ml)
submitted 3 days ago by stoicEuropean@lemmy.ml to c/europe@feddit.org
36 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

I know this is a bold thesis. It is meant to provoke thought and encourage debate. Here are some of the considerations that led me to it:

  • Europe depends on US military protection, and the US uses this “alliance” as leverage -> NATO gives Washington structural influence over European security choices.

  • US tech firms dominate Europe’s cloud and software stack, creating digital dependency. Also, European data often sits under infrastructure exposed to US legal and corporate power.

  • Russian energy dependence was a problem for Europe when the Ukraine war started. The US were quite eager when it came to "help" by replacing the Russian energy dependence with American energy dependence.

  • US sanctions policy often forces Europe to absorb costs for Washington’s geopolitical priorities.

  • American platforms shape European speech, commerce, administration, and most importantly: public debate.

  • “Strategic autonomy” exists as a slogan because dependency is already the default.

all 37 comments
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[–] username_1@programming.dev 41 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Yes, for the last century or so. But without success, and recently their grip is weakening because of a series of astonishingly stupid decisions.

[–] stoicEuropean@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Interesting point. My gut feeling tells me the opposite, since the tone of the discourse between the blocs changed to the worse. And Europe still likes to appease the US. But I see your point. US soft power slowly erodes away.

[–] Lehmuusa@nord.pub 28 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Fast, not slowly. The change in attitudes has been far bigger than you imagine.

[–] espentan@lemmy.world 4 points 3 days ago

Indeed, there's a very noticeable anti-american sentiment among so many I talk to, these days.

E.g. a dude at work mentioned just the other day how he found it hard not to use youtube but he strived to at least not watch American channels. Also at work, ongoing discussions on how to best lessen dependency on US products/services, since orange made it clear we can't depend on the US as a reliable partner and in turn nor the companies that call it home.

[–] ZkhqrD5o@lemmy.world 9 points 3 days ago

IMHO: the change has been neck-breakingly fast. It's only a year since the annoying orange has taken power and the Europeans have realised that the structures with the Americans only take one malevolent cunt to damage the entire continent. Remember, before Trump, the EU was beyond friendly with the Americans. And in one year the MAGA cult and Trump completely destroyed more than 70 years of the transatlantic relationship. That's an accomplishment, he managed to do something that no other European could for the past 70 years. And there's no going back to the US dependence after this spectacular failure.

[–] Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 36 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Europe depends on US military protection,

At least Usa people looove to think so :)

And they also love NOT to think about what would their own situation look like, if all these countries in the NATO were NOT their allies.

US tech firms dominate Europe’s cloud and software stack, creating digital dependency. Also, European data often sits under infrastructure exposed to US legal and corporate power.

True

The US were quite eager when it came to "help" by replacing the Russian energy dependence with American energy dependence.

That's quite an overestimation. Not much has actually changed.

US sanctions policy often forces Europe to absorb costs

Same as above. Europe doesn't just swallow it all. Maybe these things aren't reported usually in your news?

•“Strategic autonomy” exists as a slogan because dependency is already the default.

Agree, but the trend to change it has started.

[–] idiomaddict@lemmy.world 24 points 3 days ago (1 children)

At least Usa people looove to think so :)

And they also love NOT to think about what would their own situation look like, if all these countries in the NATO were NOT their allies.

I think the USA is in a sort of teenager phase where they think they’re invincible. They haven’t ever lost much as a nation and it doesn’t occur to them that they could. I say that as an American emigrant in Germany.

[–] FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world 15 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I think they're more like petulant toddlers than bulletproof teenagers

[–] Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

petulant toddlers

Nah that just the orange clown and some of his figurines around him.

But there are others too! Seriously dark and strong ones in the background.

[–] FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world 7 points 3 days ago

Sure

Everyone knows that the real power is in the background

But the average 'Murican isn't an edgy teen, they're an idiot toddler finger-painting with their own shit

It's going to get worse when the edgy-teen phase kicks in because the destruction won't be wanton, it'll be wilful

[–] hendrik@palaver.p3x.de 14 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

Aren't they doing a super shitty job at it?

I mean computer tech and movies and TV series are a good point. That's entirely dominated by the USA. So are the internet platforms. And I think that is a big issue. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have the stupid culture war and as many radicalized or passively doomscrolling people, if it wasn't for their effective algorithms.

Other than that, idk. Most our consumer goods come from China. Our infrastructure is made here or at other places. Trains, a good chunk of airplanes. It's a tiny amount of the population who buys American cars, because they're just not as good as any German or South Asian one... If I look at my apartment, furniture, appliances, pans and pots, power drill... None of that has anything to do with the US, nor does it have any American brand name on it.

We have a lot of culture, books, podcasts, music... It's more or less just the TV and cinema that come with predominantly US content. My bookshelf is >90% non-US authors. Lots of Germans, quite some Brits, something about a Witcher made by a Polish dude... And I've been socialised that way. I think it's only Americans who grow up consuming only their own culture.

Energy... Well if it wasn't for stupid politicians, we'd do the renewable ones. And seems with recent events, quite some people learned we want electric vehicles and heat pumps, and renewable electricity. So if we manage to convince our politicians to invest, we're free from the shackles of the oil and natural gas industry a bit sooner. We need to do it anyway, because it's cheaper and there's a finite amount of resources. So selling the outdated energy isn't even a good long-term strategy in colonializing anyone.

And US military "protection"... Against whom? We didn't have any proper attempt at invading us with a military, since WW2. And now that Putin tries waging war, we can see the US isn't even reliable anymore.

[–] stoicEuropean@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Thanks for the thoughtful response and the well-reasoned arguments. Sometimes it is difficult to get a proper reality check when your own perspective is not seriously challenged. I think you actually convinced me and shifted my view closer to yours.

Since you seem very well informed, I would also be interested in your opinion on something else: I have the impression that the US and Russia are slowly but steadily moving toward strategic alignment. Perhaps this is because the US increasingly sees Russia as a potential geopolitical partner against the PRC.

What concerns me is that this dynamic reminds me, at least superficially, of the logic behind the Molotov-Ribbentrop-Pact between the USSR and the Third Reich. Do you think it is unreasonable to fear that Moscow and Washington could eventually seek to divide Europe into spheres of influence between themselves? Both powers appear to have imperial ambitions, and both seem increasingly determined to preserve or expand their respective spheres of influence.

Sure, Europe is far from defenseless. But a large-scale two-front conflict, especially if coordinated and sudden, would likely overwhelm Europe’s current military and political capacities. What's your opinion on that?

[–] hendrik@palaver.p3x.de 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Interesting question. I mean it probably depends a bit on how long we think the current political course of the USA lasts. Seems to me the current wannabe king lost quite some backing with the electorate. And all of the unsteadiness, extra cost for the economy, ... might not be very sustainable in the long run. So this situation might swing to the other direction sometime soonish?!

I think the USA overall might still have quite some of the original idea deep inside. It's just the current administration and whatever crazy things some individuals come up with. But it doesn't look to me like they're doing a lot of successful geopolitical strategy. I mean they do have ideas. But then they just do random things. One week they're big into conspiracy narratives against the jews, the next day they side with Israel and start a war. Which is another thing they promised to do less, a few months before that. They start some trade war against China, and they lose it. Then they do declare themselves the winner. I think only real strategy here is some Orwellian: War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength... And their flood the zone strategy. But that mostly deals with the domestic population. A good amount of them is stupid and they cheer for Trump for deporting people. But at some point even they will realize the current rate at which Trump is doing it will leave you with immigrants for another 30-60 years. So he can't even meet the expectations of the xenophobes. In reality, that is. They can lie about it, and they do. But I guess at some point there will be a reality check. Plus there's also lots of clever and sane people in the USA.

So I don't see any proper attempt suitable to beat China or Europe. And I think the MAGA days are already numbered. So I just don't think we might be looking at a strategy like that in the near future.

And it takes two to tango. Putin has been following a long term strategy for decades already. And up to now, all his negotiations with the US and phone calls have turned out his way. Seems to me that kind of direction comes Putin's way. But idk. He's kinda weak? He misjudged the situation in Ukraine and he's now busy with that. He can't beat them. And he lost over a million men, wasted his weapon stockpile. His economy isn't doing good at all. I don't think he can afford another war, right now. Plus he already has a strategy against us and he'll probably stick with it for a little bit longer. He's doing this hybrid warfare to destabilize us. Fill our social media with misinformation, sow distrust, give suitcases filled with money to our most fascist and corrupt politicians. Sabotage our infrastructure... I think that's more like Putin. I don't expect any pact with the USA from him. At least not any pact that makes him promise anything to the USA.

Ultimately, I don't think Russia and the USA are even aligned. There's some overlap with the oligarchy and corruption going on. But it's not really like they follow the same goals. And the USA as a democratic country are supposed to do what the population wants, anyway. Not let some politicians do whatever, mostly for personal gain.

[–] huppakee@piefed.social 1 points 3 days ago

Sure, Europe is far from defenseless. But a large-scale two-front conflict, especially if coordinated and sudden, would likely overwhelm Europe’s current military and political capacities. What's your opinion on that?

You aren't asking for my opinion, but my two cents on this: if it's Europe alone vs Russia alone, Russia can do damage but not really win anything meaningful. But if it is Europe alone vs Russian with China (and NK), Russia could probably do whatever the fuck it wanted because China has the abilities to wipe out all our air defense systems and likely to kill all our communication channels.

I have the impression that the US and Russia are slowly but steadily moving toward strategic alignment. Perhaps this is because the US increasingly sees Russia as a potential geopolitical partner against the PRC.

Regarding this, i think they US is moving closer to Russia, but I'm not sure if it's because of strategy. It might be simply because Trump aspires to reign like Putin. Either way, the US considers China the biggest threat to their hegemony and while Russia and China are aligned they are both much stronger (Russia has the materials, China has the means to do something with that) so splitting them up would be a win, strategically. But it's unlikely as long as the UN Security Council continues to give 5 countries veto power, i can't imagine the 3 vs 2 (US, UK & France vs China & Russia) ever becoming 4 vs 1.

[–] 73ms@sopuli.xyz 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

What they're doing now shouldn't be conflated with what they used to do (which was arguably more mutually beneficial) and if the hypothesis OP makes was correct it would be a recent thing.

But yes, I think the Trump admin wants to make Europe a subject just like they want to do it with Venezuela, Iran etc. even if the method is thankfully different. I don't think it's going to work.

[–] hendrik@palaver.p3x.de 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Yeah, thanks. Guess OP asked if they want to do it / are trying. But i answered another question, whether I think they're successful in actually doing it...

Thh, I can't even tell. What Trump does is a lot of caprice. Goals and rules change on a weekly basis. Probably so we all learn to submit to whatever is sent our way, as proper peasants should. That would be learned helplessness for one part of the people. And gladly accepting the role as sheeple for the people who just want someone to tell them whom to hate.

But I really question whether there's more geopolitical strategy behind it. Doesn't look like it to me. And Venezuela was kind of the only successful thing Trump did. Iran... not so much.

[–] ComradePenguin@lemmy.ml 10 points 3 days ago

The sentiment towards the US have changed significantly the last couple of years, the last year accelerated like hell. We prefer US support through NATO for safety, and we need to arm up. Something we have started doing at a huge tempo. Same goes for tech. What value does the US still provide us compared to before? They don't produce many things that are completely vital. We will treat them like a untrustworthy trade partner, and gradually grow closer ties with China. The trade partner that we actually heavily depend on, and that have yet to heavily fuck us over with tariffs as punishment

[–] MousePotatoDoesStuff@piefed.social 7 points 3 days ago

More of a vassal/satellite region than an outright colony (which would require a large amount of constant resource expenditure and military presence on their behalf), but yes, the US government likely wants this... or, more precisely, already has it and wants to keep it that way.

And that's at least part of the reason why I'm on the fediverse and use Linux now.

[–] Gonzako@lemmy.world 4 points 3 days ago

They accomplished it on the UK.

[–] encelado748@feddit.org 3 points 3 days ago

I would argue that Europe is much less dependent now then during the cold war. From the 1990, thanks to the EU, europe began a process of equalization, capable of dealing with the US as peers. While the economic interdependency is still high, and the military collaboration in NATO is undeniable, Europe is growing less and less dependent from the US. The fact that Europe depends on the US for military protection is fantasy. Is the economical interdependency that gives the US leverage, not NATO. The US already abandoned europe defence in Ukraine and is actively damaging Europe with his illegal aggressive war in Iran. The idea that Europe wants to maintain good relationship with the US because of military protection is laughable. Europe want to protect one of the biggest export market for european economies.

[–] Tudsamfa@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago

I guess it's a European privilege that we even get a "nice" version of colonization. Now to be fair, you can read

"For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
"For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States: "

in the US declaration of independence and draw some comparisons (Anne Sacoolas/Christopher Van Goethem), but come on, get a new name for this.

[–] JustJack23@slrpnk.net 4 points 3 days ago

Yes and it has been very successful since WW2. Not a bold thesis at all.

[–] doleo@lemmy.one 3 points 3 days ago

It might be worthwhile to separate the notion of the US 'state' from their real sources of power, corporations and banking. In terms of the latter, Europe has been a colony for decades. The former is run by incompetent puppets with delusions of grandeur.

[–] CosmoNova@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Seeing a lot of EU and Europe being mixed up here.

[–] stoicEuropean@lemmy.ml 1 points 3 days ago

True. I don't usually do this mistake. It just happened that EU fit better into the meme template. My bad!

[–] Jiral@lemmy.org 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

It is not that different from mixing up the US and America, actually the latter is even worse as that also includes North and South America.

[–] Kennystillalive@feddit.org 2 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Jokes on you, they already are Vasal states of the US.

[–] Jiral@lemmy.org 3 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

A vasal, but not a colony. In fact France for example is even a borderline case even in the former category. It has fully independent nuclear capabilities and is currently getting serious about purging IT dependency at least in the public sector.

[–] nosuchanon@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

That’s the post-war design. Tied to American policy via UN veto powers, NATO military hardware, and US finalization.

The US exports weapons, policy, and finance and Europe has to buy it and do what it’s told.

That was always the design.

[–] Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 3 days ago

USA and China. Both are colonising europe and africa.

The torch of freedom and democracy calls for a new carrier. The beacons have been lit. And Europe, shall answer. TOGETHER!

[–] trollercoaster@sh.itjust.works 1 points 3 days ago

Europe depends on US military protection, and the US uses this “alliance” as leverage -> NATO gives Washington structural influence over European security choices.

Europe could easily end this, but this would entail facing some uncomfortable truths. The main component of US military protection is the nuclear deterrent. building one of their own isn't palatable to the populations of some European countries, and so is the return to conscription in order to build a military personnel pool suitable for conventional deterrent.

US tech firms dominate Europe’s cloud and software stack, creating digital dependency. Also, European data often sits under infrastructure exposed to US legal and corporate power.

What the fuck is "tech"? Not going to argue against a bullshit term.

Russian energy dependence was a problem for Europe when the Ukraine war started. The US were quite eager when it came to “help” by replacing the Russian energy dependence with American energy dependence.

Energy dependence is a problem, and so is energy as a whole. Unfortunately, the problem of energy production and distribution is largely left to prinate businesses, even though it is a vital part of a modern country's infrastructure. This leads to price gouging and neglect of maintenance in order to increase shareholders' profits, at the detriment of entire societies. THis is an ideological problem, partly caused by the US, too, because they did export their radical free market ideology to their vassal states.

US sanctions policy often forces Europe to absorb costs for Washington’s geopolitical priorities.

So? Sanction right back, two can play that game.

American platforms shape European speech, commerce, administration, and most importantly: public debate.

That's not something that can't be changed. Those American platforms only exist in Europe, because they can make profits. If they do harm society, fine them, and, regardless of that, tax their profits.

“Strategic autonomy” exists as a slogan because dependency is already the default.

This dependency has been built and maintained carefully, and did, at least for some time, serve somewhat mutual interests. Because the US chose to elect a bunch of morons into their government repeatedly, the interests this dependency serves, aren't at all mutual anymore. The only solution is to get rid of it as an act of self preservation. Strategic autonomy for individual countries the size of those in Europe isn't really feasible given the size of the great powers, though, but there is a solution to that: The EU, which should strive for strategic autonomy.

[–] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 3 days ago

No, they're not